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England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#191

Post by EasyTiger_ »

nilkn wrote: post #101
NomeChomsky wrote: post #3

Good. There is no evidence to support them. You can still transmit the virus whilst double vaccinated. They do not slow spread only hospitalisation.

While this sub may be a bit distasteful for some, I recommend spending some time reading through the countless examples documented there of folks who refused the vaccine based on this kind of thinking and then ended up dying often very unpleasant deaths while unable to breathe for days or weeks: https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ This sub has seen extremely rapid growth, which is perhaps one of the most tragic…

Rapid growth means absolutely nothing on Reddit when it's possibly the most the most astro-turfed platform on the internet. I came across a thread from that subreddit and it resembled a grotesque celebration that a 4-year old had died due to an anti-vax family member.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#192

Post by freeflight »

sudosysgen wrote: post #164
freeflight wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not really as black&white as that. Vaccinated people are more prone to be asymptomatic when infected, which means they are less likely to notice the infection, thus less likely to isolate and go into quarantine. This is made even worse by the fact how a whole bunch of countries have stopped testing vaccinated people, they are just assumed healthy and not contagious by default. Now throw in vaccinated people dema…

Vaccinated people are less symptomatic because they have a lower viral load. Their infectivity window is lower. In the corresponding time frames, they have similar symptoms

If they had similar symptoms then there would be no point to the vaccination at all because it’s symptoms why people get hospitalized.

By now that’s even become the main argument for vaccinations: Less hospitalizations due to less severe symptoms. While all the talk about “herd immunity”, the original most pushed reason for mass vaccinations, has turned out to be not realistic.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#193

Post by howinteresting »

hervature wrote: post #163
junon wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against free and informed consent This is a problem - it is often not very informed. As for medical history, we have to show vaccination records for a number of things - school, travel sometimes, certain lines of work. Proof of vaccination against a highly mutation-prone virus in the midst of a pandemic doesn't reveal anything more about you than it would about anyone else - which is specifically allowed via HIPAA,…

What about waiting for full FDA approval? I agree that your Facebook Mom groups are full of BS but why are PhD earners more hesitant than only high school educated [1]. [1] - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v...

The Pfizer vaccine has already received full FDA approval, and Moderna is expected to get it shortly.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#194

Post by thepasswordis »

sudosysgen wrote: post #125
thepasswordis wrote: post #94

The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power. The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are successful at completely shutting down travel to the rest of the world: not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. If you're vaccinated, you can still get a…

It's completely and incontrovertibly bullshit that vaccines don't help unvaccinated people. Vaccines drastically reduce hospitalisation. That frees up medical resources for everyone, especially those who aren't vaccinated and those that need care. We are already seeing medical procedures get postponed and hospital staff being pushed at the breaking point. The help to your community of being vaccinated is simply huge.

Yeah, again this is a great talking point for those who are enjoying their newfound power, but unfortunately for them (and fortunately for the inhabitants of this country!) the numbers do not bare this out: https://www.dph.illinois.gov/covid19/hospitalization-utiliza...

Do you know of a hospital system that’s overloaded in the way you are worried about? I’ve seen plenty of bloggers who talk about this, but they never seem to actually link to the data backing up their stories.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#195

Post by hef19898 »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #5
NomeChomsky wrote: post #3

Good. There is no evidence to support them. You can still transmit the virus whilst double vaccinated. They do not slow spread only hospitalisation.

> You can still transmit the virus whilst double vaccinated. They do not slow spread only hospitalisation. With the disclaimer that I'm not an expert: that's wrong. The vaccines are extremely efficacious in preventing hospitalisations and deaths, and are moderately efficacious in reducing transmission.

And if the vaccine prevents hospitalization and death Covid will become just like any other virus making turns in our societies. IF enough people are vaccinated, that is. if it wasn't for the people unable to be vaccinated, kids under 12 for now, medical conditions and so on, I'd say get rd of restrictions. If it was only the unvaccinated that are at serious risk, well, it was their decision and I don't really care. they are still putting others at risk, and that is simply not acceptable.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#196

Post by kuraudo »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #140
throwaway316943 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those who are downvoting this are being blatantly disingenuous. Tobacco alone kills over 480,000 people per year in the US. There is a very strong case for banning it if your fundamental concern is the health of others and the upkeep of the health system. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/heal... Alcohol kills another 95,000 per year in the US https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcoh…

Let's start with the simplest: tobacco. There is no way to make it disappear, you can only make it illegal. Our experiments with making other addictive drugs illegal had been a complete failure, I doubt you could even find convincing research that shows that making them illegal has led to less deaths due to them. Whereas vaccine passports appear to actually work. That is a major difference.

I take issue with this comparison: just because the prior 'experiments' have been failures does not mean that future efforts which utilize entirely different methods will be. The war on drugs was already highly criticized for its ineffectiveness on several accounts: there is definitely a way to eradicate the problem, but those were not it and even people at the time knew it.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#197

Post by andybak »

quotemstr wrote: post #82
bryanlarsen wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's wrong. The vaccine is moderately effective at preventing the spread of early variants. It's not very effective at preventing the spread of Delta from an infected person, but it's quite effective (but far from perfect) at preventing people from getting infected in the first place, thus overall significantly slowing spread . https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

Vaccine passport proponents routinely cite "slowing [the] spread" as a reason to impose vaccination requirements despite discoveries earlier this year showing that vaccinated individuals can still spread the disease. In light of these discoveries, vaccine passports and other coercive measures don't make any dense. Delta has an R value of 8. That makes it one of the most infectious diseases we know about. Future varia…

It's hard to unpick your argument but it seems that you say in a couple of places something similar to "eradication isn't possible therefore reduction has no benefit".

For example:

"Vaccine passport proponents routinely cite "slowing [the] spread" as a reason to impose vaccination requirements

Yep.

> despite discoveries earlier this year showing that vaccinated individuals can still spread the disease.

If you'd said "can still spread the disease as much as unvaccinated" then this would have made sense. From my understanding the jury is still out on this question with the consensus being "the vaccinated spread it less but we're not sure how much less".

> Likewise, unless the vaccine can reduce R below 1[...] universal vaccination cannot stop the spread of the disease.

Even if we accept this part (and I'm not sure I do) then you again seem to be conflating "can't stop it entirely" with "has no benefit"

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#198

Post by howinteresting »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #152
dgellow wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, now we do. At least in Hamburg, Germany. It was very quick to adapt, you flash your QR code and that’s it, we are back to supporting our local restaurants and other businesses we love. The alternative was to see them close one by one, I’m personally very happy with the way the EU vaccine pass has been implemented.

You understand that the restaurants were closing “one by one” because the government was closing them, and not because patrons were not attending them? It was a self-inflected wound.

What is your evidence for the implied counterfactual?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#199

Post by nilkn »

EasyTiger_ wrote: post #191
nilkn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this sub may be a bit distasteful for some, I recommend spending some time reading through the countless examples documented there of folks who refused the vaccine based on this kind of thinking and then ended up dying often very unpleasant deaths while unable to breathe for days or weeks: https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ This sub has seen extremely rapid growth, which is perhaps one of the most tragic…

Rapid growth means absolutely nothing on Reddit when it's possibly the most the most astro-turfed platform on the internet. I came across a thread from that subreddit and it resembled a grotesque celebration that a 4-year old had died due to an anti-vax family member.

The sub’s content is based on actual examples of vocally unvaccinated people dying. Unfortunately, there has been an endless supply of new content. That’s not the result of astroturfing. It’s the result of large numbers of people refusing the vaccine and ending up in the hospital for weeks, often dying.

Frankly, the sub has probably saved lives by convincing some folks to go get vaccinated. My own parents refused to get vaccinated until my dad’s unvaccinated cousin got COVID and was dead within a week.

I can't find the example you're referring to. Feel free to link to it.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#200

Post by hef19898 »

gruez wrote: post #184
sofixa wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is, the number of vaccinations in France jumped remarkably after vaccine passports were made mandatory for cinemas, theatres, restaurants, etc. Considering that's the main goal of such policies, it seems like a success. And yes, the main point is to limit hospitalisations, because they're the main limiting factor ( at least in France, but probably in most other developed countries as well).

>Considering that's the main goal of such policies, it seems like a success. The ends justifies the means right?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In a democracy there is a way to make your point for every particular case in question: voting. Or demonstrations, which were held against Covid measures basically since the first wave all across democratic nations.
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