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Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

nytimes.com

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Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#61

Post by quetzlbazaar »

ctoth wrote: post #30
quetzlbazaar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution in my opinion to this problem is to permit euthanasia and for assisted suicide to become culturally accepted as an alternative to a drawn out death of dementia in a care home. The quality of life for many (not all) care home residents who are on these sorts of drug regimens is dire and in reality not entirely for their benefit, as is apparent to everyone including those responsible for oversight like Med…

Okay, let's assume we do exactly what you outlined there. In 2031, do you not expect to read an exposé on how many "care home" residents are being pressured into signing euthanasia papers without understanding what they're doing? How do we avoid that world?

I would definitely expect to read such an exposé and certainly there would be cases of people pressured into assisted suicide who otherwise would not want it. There is no good solution to this issue, in my mind. Some measures could be taken to prevent undue coercion like criminalizing those who did it but I'm not sure how it would work exactly.

Personally I think I would prefer euthanasia if I knew I was developing dementia and likely to end up in a care home similar to the one described in the article, or even one much better than that, so perhaps selfishly I would prefer a society where such is legal even though there would end up being abuses like you describe.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#62

Post by Gigachad »

QuarterReptile wrote: post #26
heavyset_go wrote: post #2

Antipsychotics are not something to be handed out like candy. They have serious, sometimes permanent and sometimes fatal, side effects in anyone of any age. The article notes how that class of medication increases mortality in elderly people in particular. The fact that some people were prescribed haloperidol as the first line of treatment instead of a newer, safer antipsychotics also blows my mind. I'm terrified of…

The truth we fail to face is that, in the grueling task of caring for the elderly and all the perverse incentives to cut corners, providing holistic care is an enormous labor of love that will tend to not work well outside of family, despite all the money we throw at it.

IMO its a problem that we try to keep everyone alive at all costs disregarding quality of life. I would much prefer to just die before becoming incapable of basic tasks and being kept artificially alive.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#63

Post by quetzlbazaar »

nradov wrote: post #37
quetzlbazaar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution in my opinion to this problem is to permit euthanasia and for assisted suicide to become culturally accepted as an alternative to a drawn out death of dementia in a care home. The quality of life for many (not all) care home residents who are on these sorts of drug regimens is dire and in reality not entirely for their benefit, as is apparent to everyone including those responsible for oversight like Med…

Jurisdictions that allow euthanasia or assisted suicide usually require that the patient be of sound mind as confirmed by a physician. But many nursing home patients are suffering from a significant level of cognitive decline and thus no longer meet the criteria. It's kind of a Catch-22.

Yes, it's unfortunate. The taboos (cultural or otherwise) and personal hang ups that people have surrounding death and dying prevent people from acting before it's too late. Ideally very-old-age/death planning would become as normal and culturally acceptable as planning your retirement and pension. The former is absolutely certain to happen but people will give almost all their thought to the latter.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#64

Post by kortilla »

david-gpu wrote: post #49
koolba wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm terrified of growing old in this country. Have kids, raise them right, and you’ll be fine. It’s worked out pretty well for a couple thousand years.

Kids do not choose to be born. We can't expect them to serve us when we get old. They owe us nothing. We forced them into this world.

They generally do though. Have more than one so you have backups.

If you’re not abusive children tend to remember the 18 years you gave them fondly and provide assistance for your last few years.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#65

Post by calvinmorrison »

quetzlbazaar wrote: post #53
BingoAhoy wrote: post #32

Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Was really surprised (better word-traumatized) that one flippant casual mention of not valuing my life in a private text message was enough to to get me detained by police in a facility for a night. "Doctor" threatened me with drugging just because I refused to answer some of their questions and instead insisted on a lawyer. Funny how freedoms can…

Suicide is offensive to society and many individuals on a deep level, especially of people who do not have a "good reason" (such as a terminal illness). While it may have progressed beyond being a criminal act, it is still taboo enough for alternative and equally good avenues to exist for society to deal with it, in this case, police and physicians empowered by law with the "duty of care" concept. This is of course b…

Step 1) fabricate an SMS

Step 2) call police

Step 3) enjoy

Wow so easy to take down your political enemies huh

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#66

Post by tiahura »

glangdale wrote: post #58
quetzlbazaar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution in my opinion to this problem is to permit euthanasia and for assisted suicide to become culturally accepted as an alternative to a drawn out death of dementia in a care home. The quality of life for many (not all) care home residents who are on these sorts of drug regimens is dire and in reality not entirely for their benefit, as is apparent to everyone including those responsible for oversight like Med…

Speaking from experience, people are not nearly as enthusiastic to make the decision to kill themselves (as dementia sets in) as every likes to imagine that they will be themselves. I have seen multiple cases of people who - in healthy middle age - made bold statements ("just shoot me when I get like that"), who later went on to write documents insisting that "all measures be taken to preserve my life". So not even "…

“I don't know why this is, but dementia is often a continuum, and the decision making that people make seems to change in early dementia.“

Is it really demented thinking to want to avoid approaching death? I am there right now with my mom, and if she wants to press on, who am I to argue?

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#67

Post by spoonjim »

The fact is that moving into a home full of strangers at the end of your life is a very cruel end to one’s life, and people fight it the way they fight kidnapping or torture. The best solution is to have your kids take care of you, the second best solution is to die. Nobody wants this which is why people need to be stuffed up with drugs to be manageable, like those tigers they use in tourist photo attractions.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#68

Post by slapfrog »

WalterBright wrote: post #24
CincinnatiMan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do other cultures do for people who can no longer take care of themselves?

Nomadic tribes would simply leave them behind.

Or the elderly would wander off on their own to die, after they perceived themselves to be a burden.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#69

Post by comrh »

quetzlbazaar wrote: post #53
BingoAhoy wrote: post #32

Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Was really surprised (better word-traumatized) that one flippant casual mention of not valuing my life in a private text message was enough to to get me detained by police in a facility for a night. "Doctor" threatened me with drugging just because I refused to answer some of their questions and instead insisted on a lawyer. Funny how freedoms can…

Suicide is offensive to society and many individuals on a deep level, especially of people who do not have a "good reason" (such as a terminal illness). While it may have progressed beyond being a criminal act, it is still taboo enough for alternative and equally good avenues to exist for society to deal with it, in this case, police and physicians empowered by law with the "duty of care" concept. This is of course b…

It's one of the two things every therapist will tell you that can force them to break the confidentiality. That it can take away your freedom, get you institutionalized, remove your ability to make your own medical decisions.

It's important to take ideations seriously but as someone who struggled with that at points in my life I never felt completely safe about discuss it.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#70

Post by glangdale »

The drugging in those places is an obscenity. If you're going to do that, you should be intentionally shortening people's lives with opiates, which at least is a lot more pleasant than getting loaded up with anti-psychotics to make people compliant. Unfortunately, the jig is generally up with that - everyone knows what opiates do.

I'm seeing a lot of bullshit on all these threads from people who are doing the whole "fake bravery about how they would just be euthanized" in this situation, and how life isn't worth living if you're demented, etc.

Here's how life goes for a demented person close to me:

A "fulfilling life" with dementia isn't that different from one without. You wake up, someone makes you a nice meal, you read the papers, shuffle around a bit, get helped to take a shower and dress, watch a movie (which you won't really take in, but it's some nice pictures), get a call from your daughter (who either lives down the road or thousands of miles away, depending on what you're remembering today), etc. On some days your carers will take you for a drive to look at the ocean, or out to a dinner.

You might dream that you went on an exciting adventure down the California coast and tell everyone about it; surprising that an 80-year-old man who can't walk unaided can take a sailboat out by himself. Everyone you talk to will enjoy your story and no-one will try to tell you that you are deluded.

Some days will be better than others, which is the same for anyone.

That's 24 hour home care - and it's not cheap. Neither is living at a facility at this stage. Often the money spent on medical heroics would be better spent on quality of life. Of course, packing folks off to a facility is necessary for some (in this case, we're talking about outright home ownership plus a modest level of wealth). And then a lot of other people frankly want to put hands on grandpa/grandma's money and/or house which is tricky if they are still living in it.

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