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Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

theguardian.com

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Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#241

Post by ffggvv »

cylde_frog wrote: post #146
ffggvv wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sometimes you just need someone who can write super simple scripts to help process/clean some data or do grunt work that none of the devs want to do. And sometimes this need is just temporary for 4 months etc. I wouldn't waste a google dev's on grunt work that any coder could do.

It's funny how arrogant you seem to have gotten working at Google. Looking through your post history a couple of years ago you were doing grunt work you would see as below you now. The belief that all Google employees are doing hard innovative work is untrue. A large portion are centering divs and wrangling JSON.

this account has had multiple owners.. i’ve never done grunt work

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#242

Post by 6510 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #240
AlbertCory wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Google’s HR should surely know better than to get involved " .. and yet, it happened. I was there. Maybe you should look up "slave labor and clothing factories" or "janitorial service companies." A modern company that contracts with another company to do something for them does not get to completely wash its hands of their practices. Up to a point, they do, but when the contractor egregiously violates the law, the…

>A modern company that contracts with another company to do something for them does not get to completely wash its hands of their practices They do if they want to maintain their position that the employees of the contracting firm are not their own employees. If an employee is not getting paid by an employer, that is between the employee, the employer, and the state department of labor. Slave labor and clothing facto…

> If an employee is not getting paid by an employer, that is between the employee, the employer, and the state department of labor.

In NL you can forget about that. It use to be that you could stick some "fictional" company between you and your employees and get out of jail free for everything, including salaries. Jobs 1-4 hours per week made it extra unlikely for any employee to run the extra mile after they were left without a name, address or phone number after about 3 months. Taking the bankrupt company to court was expensive and unlikely to work. People don't take a 2 hour job unless they need the money.

Now the obligation to pay salaries applies all the way up the food chain.

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#243

Post by AlbertCory »

Tenoke wrote: post #105
AlbertCory wrote: post #37

Personal Googler story: In Ads and in Search, at least as of 2010 or so, Google employed independent companies who hired "raters" to provide "ground truth" for the ML systems. For example, they would rate proposed ads for a given query, so that the ML system could learn from their "truth". For Search, they'd rate proposed search results for a given query. There was a whole pipeline to bring in the raters' results and…

I've worked for one of those companies and I don't understand this. It was about paying them for just a test problem? During an interview presumably? And you got involved with them through HR even given how completely separate they are? On the actual jobs you get so many timed tasks that a single one wouldn't even stand out, really.

> "During an interview presumably"

No. They had an entrance exam, and my cousin had passed it and signed on.

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#244

Post by AlbertCory »

verbify wrote: post #190
jerf wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an old phrase. In this case, "proves" means something more like "tests". In modern terms, I'd say it's something like, "You don't really know you have a rule until someone has tested it by claiming an exception." e.g., setting a child's bedtime to 9pm will pose no challenge if they voluntarily go to bed at 8:30, it isn't until the exception comes along that you know whether or not you really have a rule.

I think the phrase 'proofing yeast' in bread making has the same connotations - you're testing that the yeast is still alive.

Off-topic here, but since I'm often making pizza dough:

I always wondered about that word. If you want to test yeast, you just put it in some sugar water & see if it foams.

But then, I guess you can't do that if it's mixed with flour & other stuff?

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#245

Post by ashtonkem »

TheJoeMan wrote: post #225
ashtonkem wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the “everything is securities fraud” school of US legal thought.

I was just thinking “wow I just read everything is securities fraud on HN”

It seems like a natural consequence of the financialization of US society; even crime is mostly viewed in terms of harms to shareholders.

I think I’m mostly being glib, mostly.

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#246

Post by Tenoke »

AlbertCory wrote: post #243
Tenoke wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked for one of those companies and I don't understand this. It was about paying them for just a test problem? During an interview presumably? And you got involved with them through HR even given how completely separate they are? On the actual jobs you get so many timed tasks that a single one wouldn't even stand out, really.

> "During an interview presumably" No. They had an entrance exam, and my cousin had passed it and signed on.

But it was a single task they took too long on?

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#247

Post by Aeolun »

burlesona wrote: post #231
Aeolun wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a fantastic way to make any employee shut up immediately the moment any form of inspector enters the building.

A fair point, but doesn't this happen already? My experience working in a large corporation is that there's a pervasive "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to outside auditors, inspectors, etc., as well as a mindset that "they're just here to make our life harder," via imposed red tape, controls, etc. If this was really an issue perhaps there could be a whistleblower provision stating that anyone who assists with a…

I think my problem is that while I may be happy to throw my bosses boss under the bus (he has it coming), Jim from accounting has a family with 5 kids, and he really needs the money. So I’ll just keep quiet about everything.

I do agree there’s an us/them mentality, but that breaks down when people feel like they can air out their grievances against senior management without sinking the company itself.

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#249

Post by user5994461 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #233
user5994461 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR is always involved with external contractors. The way contracting usually work is that the contractor must submit timesheets daily or weekly to a supervisor at the parent company. The supervisor must approve the timesheet. The contractor will be paid the hours in the timesheet. The story is a classic example where the manager (google employees) refused to acknowledge the hours for no valid reasons, preventing cont…

That would be about compensation for the contracted firm itself though, which would make sense. I may have misunderstood the story as Google HR getting involved because the contracted firm did not pay an employee of the contracted firm.

The employer pays the contracting firm based on the timesheet, then the contracting firm pays the employee based on the timesheet/pay they were forwarded.

When there's a problem with the employee not being paid, the root cause often goes back to the employer blocking the pay in the first place.

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#250

Post by user5994461 »

AlbertCory wrote: post #238
user5994461 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR is always involved with external contractors. The way contracting usually work is that the contractor must submit timesheets daily or weekly to a supervisor at the parent company. The supervisor must approve the timesheet. The contractor will be paid the hours in the timesheet. The story is a classic example where the manager (google employees) refused to acknowledge the hours for no valid reasons, preventing cont…

No, not what happened. The contracting firm was officially "arms' length" from Google and no Google employees even knew my cousin's name. However, it turns out that "arms' length" doesn't mean the contractor can get away with absolutely anything .

I can only comment in the general case, I don't know your personal situation obviously.

Contractors cannot be at arms length. There has to be an arrangement with the employer (Google here) and the contracting firms to pay. That means there has to be a timesheet for each employee. Could be filled by either party.

You said your cousin wasn't paid because somebody (implying from Google Search) said she took too long and refused to pay her. To me that sounds like a normal story where Google had to approve the hours/pay and they didn't. The excuse from Google employees that they are detached is fishy at best, they wouldn't be able to prevent payment if they were.

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