Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#181

Post by eesmith » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

temphnaccount wrote: post #151

pteraspidomorph wrote: post #6

I agree with this opinion piece. Firefox is a product strangely hostile to its core userbase. It's almost like they've been deliberately trying to sabotage themselves for years. I don't use it because I approve of all their stupid pigheaded UI choices, I use it because it has been the least bad option despite those choices. That might not go on for much longer, though.

I'd say other way around is true. HN crowd won't like this but it's very hard to continuously update a product for the core userbase that Firefox has. (small sample size but I maintain a small privacy focused app and from my experience, most of the reviews I get are how it's missing features which competitors have or how it's unusable because it can't handle stuff without jeopardizing privacy focused nature of the ap…

> it seems most of the customers of privacy focused products

Do most people use Firefox because it's "privacy focused"? I don't - I think people use it because it does the things they want ... and "privacy" is far down that list.

I know I'm an odd-ball, but I haven't upgrading my FF because I want ftp support in my browser. I upgraded the desktop my kids use, and the tabs went all wonky. The only reason I haven't switched is I trust Google less than I do FF, and I want to stave off a technology monoculture.

Yes, my clear desire for ftp support means I don't want technologically perfect security or privacy.

Concerning "privacy" as the article points out in the section "Invading your privacy at the same time as telling us “we value your privacy”

] Telemetry. Hidden telemetry that isn’t disabled when you click “disable telemetry”. Firstrun pings. Forced signing of add-ons. Auto-updates you can’t switch off, pinging every 10 minutes. “Experiments” which require a separate opt out. Now the latest offence is enforcing app based 2FA to login to a Firefox Add-on account just to make a custom theme, which you wouldn’t need in the first place if not for forced add-on signing.

> either the product stops growing and simply becomes a niche product for those set of users or it dies.

FF has dropped a lot of users, so I assume you mean it's decided to be a niche product in the "privacy" space, and not a generally useful tool?

Its marketing doesn't seem that successful, as my first thoughts are to switch to a tool based on FOSS Chromium.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#182

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #90

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, isn't this a bit like saying, "I left Windows for Ubuntu because of the invasive privacy concerns I had... But man Unity is terrible, I'm going back to Windows!" If privacy is the ultimate concern, I can suffer usability. I think the real issue is we've stopped advocating for privacy loudly and publicly. All the users know is convenience.

That's how everybody is here. Nobody takes a principled stand when it involves even the slightest sacrifice.

Most people don’t have the time or energy at the end of the day to take principled stands on every issue.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#183

Post by wilkystyle » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

lavabiopsy wrote: post #171

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you can't, because Mozilla deems that only X% of users use that feature and maintaining its configurability consumes too much organizational resources. First the GUI to edit the GUI disappears, then the about:config option follows later. That's what's been steadily happening. Less and less customizability for power users, more and more streamlining for new users.

I don't see how that's a problem, you can just modify the CSS. If you too decide that's too much work and consumes too much of your resources for not enough gain, well then now you know why Mozilla made the decision.

I think you just answered exactly how that's a problem...

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#184

Post by Ekaros » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #155

pwdisswordfish8 wrote: post #40

> Then Google decided to make the tabs on top standard for its Chrome browser, which was designed for mobile devices not desktops. On a smartphone it may make sense, as there isn’t room for a full desktop style menu layout. On a desktop it is counterintuitive and breaks workflow with all other programs. Funnily enough, moving tabs to the top is actually one of the few UI changes I actually agree with and find more lo…

The most logical tab position is on the left or right, on desktop, because most of the space on a wide screen display is on the horrizontal axis, and you want to reserve as much vertical space as possible for scrolling websites (which happens vertically, and pretty much cannot be changed at this point, as it is baked into the web). There's an addon for that, but you no longer can hide the default tab bar! So now it j…

Or website should use most of the space sideways on my screen... Not removing content and making usability infinitely worse. How many years until everything is designed for mobile and if it even shows 80 character column it is good for desktop...

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#185

Post by throwaway210911 » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

Firefox has been in decline for 12 years because it only exists for the FAANG companies to throw money at so they can dodge claims of being a monopoly. It is not there to be useful nor to make a profit.

Their core business is taking money from large companies and performatively acting like a company to look like 'competition.'

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#186

Post by baybal2 » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

pteraspidomorph wrote: post #6

I agree with this opinion piece. Firefox is a product strangely hostile to its core userbase. It's almost like they've been deliberately trying to sabotage themselves for years. I don't use it because I approve of all their stupid pigheaded UI choices, I use it because it has been the least bad option despite those choices. That might not go on for much longer, though.

> Firefox is a product strangely hostile to its core userbase. It's almost like they've been deliberately trying to sabotage themselves for years.

Easily explainable

Mozilla been captured by "aspirational" MBA types who think they don't really need that userbase, instead they want to chase "what big boys do", and copy lame features in hopes that monkeying Apple will score them iDevices users — the type of people they psychologically want to associate themselves with.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#187

Post by ryantgtg » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

eesmith wrote: post #181

temphnaccount wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say other way around is true. HN crowd won't like this but it's very hard to continuously update a product for the core userbase that Firefox has. (small sample size but I maintain a small privacy focused app and from my experience, most of the reviews I get are how it's missing features which competitors have or how it's unusable because it can't handle stuff without jeopardizing privacy focused nature of the ap…

> it seems most of the customers of privacy focused products Do most people use Firefox because it's "privacy focused"? I don't - I think people use it because it does the things they want ... and "privacy" is far down that list. I know I'm an odd-ball, but I haven't upgrading my FF because I want ftp support in my browser. I upgraded the desktop my kids use, and the tabs went all wonky. The only reason I haven't swi…

Like you, I don’t choose Firefox because of some privacy features. I use it because it doesn’t have completely bonkers “history” feature like Chromium does, and because it seems fast and I’m used to it.

Also, I must be blind but I didn’t notice any diff with the tabs in that recent update where everyone freaked out because the tabs were slightly different. The tabs are still fine!

Come to think of it I don’t have any complaints about Firefox, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering to contribute my thoughts here.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#188

Post by dralley » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

freediver wrote: post #179

dralley wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a business model question, right? Mozilla has chosen to be indirectly ad-supported vs making a premium (as in paid-for) or a freemium browser as a business model. Nothing prevents someone from making a great privacy focused browser and actually charging for it? Except the fact that nobody (relative to even their current userbase) would use it, and maintaining a browser is incredibly difficult and expensive.…

But then we are in conflict as we want Mozilla to create a superior product but we are not ready pay for it? One of these expectations has to give in then.

Yes, I completely agree that HN has a massive cognitive dissonance about this. They're so used to venture capitalists and FAANG companies lighting billions of dollars on fire to subsidize money-losing but moat-building projects that they have completely unrealistic expectations about what is reasonable for the other 99.99% of the universe (without magic money fountains propping them up) to do sustainably.

But the reality is that because of this, browsers are commoditized, and the average user will never pay for a browser if they can get Chrome or Safari for free. That's probably true of the average HN user, too, for that matter.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#189

Post by lavabiopsy » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

wilkystyle wrote: post #183

lavabiopsy wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that's a problem, you can just modify the CSS. If you too decide that's too much work and consumes too much of your resources for not enough gain, well then now you know why Mozilla made the decision.

I think you just answered exactly how that's a problem...

I'm sorry I don't understand. Is the problem that modifying computer code takes effort? If so then sure, that's true, but Firefox (or any other browser) can't be blamed for that.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#190

Post by Arech » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

lavabiopsy wrote: post #171

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you can't, because Mozilla deems that only X% of users use that feature and maintaining its configurability consumes too much organizational resources. First the GUI to edit the GUI disappears, then the about:config option follows later. That's what's been steadily happening. Less and less customizability for power users, more and more streamlining for new users.

I don't see how that's a problem, you can just modify the CSS. If you too decide that's too much work and consumes too much of your resources for not enough gain, well then now you know why Mozilla made the decision.

Yes, you can. But once you think about it, you'll see that you actually can't. Because once you're making changes to components instead of formalized settings, you are doomed to re-apply them each software update. Not a smart way to customize.