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Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

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Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#171

Post by lavabiopsy »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #150
dralley wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can remove the spacers with 3 clicks.

Until you can't, because Mozilla deems that only X% of users use that feature and maintaining its configurability consumes too much organizational resources. First the GUI to edit the GUI disappears, then the about:config option follows later. That's what's been steadily happening. Less and less customizability for power users, more and more streamlining for new users.

I don't see how that's a problem, you can just modify the CSS. If you too decide that's too much work and consumes too much of your resources for not enough gain, well then now you know why Mozilla made the decision.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#172

Post by floatingatoll »

wellthisishn wrote: post #165
temphnaccount wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say other way around is true. HN crowd won't like this but it's very hard to continuously update a product for the core userbase that Firefox has. (small sample size but I maintain a small privacy focused app and from my experience, most of the reviews I get are how it's missing features which competitors have or how it's unusable because it can't handle stuff without jeopardizing privacy focused nature of the ap…

But reviews about missing feature, or reviews in general... that might not give you a good idea of why people are using it, if they don't leave a review at all

I have never written a review of anything in twenty years, I think. Consider that reviews are inherently biased towards people who are accustomed to speaking up, either because they like reviewing things (not many people) or because they’re upset and have a problem (many people). It becomes evident in practice that reviews generally aren’t productive to consider.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#173

Post by freediver »

temphnaccount wrote: post #151
pteraspidomorph wrote: post #6

I agree with this opinion piece. Firefox is a product strangely hostile to its core userbase. It's almost like they've been deliberately trying to sabotage themselves for years. I don't use it because I approve of all their stupid pigheaded UI choices, I use it because it has been the least bad option despite those choices. That might not go on for much longer, though.

I'd say other way around is true. HN crowd won't like this but it's very hard to continuously update a product for the core userbase that Firefox has. (small sample size but I maintain a small privacy focused app and from my experience, most of the reviews I get are how it's missing features which competitors have or how it's unusable because it can't handle stuff without jeopardizing privacy focused nature of the ap…

> it seems most of the customers of privacy focused products want all the other features of competitors; most of the times without paying any money

This is a business model question, right? Nothing prevents someone from making a great privacy focused browser and actually charging for it vs being directly (Brave?) or indirectly (Chrome, Firefox?) ad-monetized.

Also in this context, referring to "customers of privacy focus products" is technically incorrect, they are actually users. Definition of a customer is "someone who pays for goods or services" thus Mozilla's main customer is Google (accounting for close to 90% of its revenue). Maybe looking through this lens, relation of Firefox product direction and what its "customers" want becomes more clear.

edit: simplified for clarity

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#174

Post by arepublicadoceu »

indymike wrote: post #146

Unpopular opinion: Personally, I'd love to see Mozilla take on Apple in court. Firefox, Gecko rendering engine and all, should be on iOS. Not allowing competing browsers is more anti-competitive than not allowing third party payments for in-app purchases, and would lead to incredible amounts of innovation.

Not unpopular at all around here, except that Mozilla going to court against a behemoth is a sure way to drain all their funding for little to no gain (there’s no evidence that firefox would gain more users with their engine on iOS).

Mozilla should use their money to improve their browser on desktop and mobile.

Firefox on iOS shows how little Mozilla cares about the platform.

For instance, no real adblock, they only have a tracker blocker which blocks most ads but misses a LOT of web annoyances like cookie banners and YouTube ads.

Example of third party browsers with full featured adblockers: - edge have adblock plus - brave have a built in adblock - iCab

Their reader mode is extremely amateurish compared to safari. Increasing font size makes the title of the article absolutely huge.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#176

Post by lousken »

mchusma wrote: post #83
lousken wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can blame whoever I want, but at the end of the day, the problem that I have to deal with is the user saying - Teams doesn't work. What am I supposed to do with it?

Honestly (you may not like the answer) I tell users "try a different browser".

exactly, and that's how firefox loses marketshare

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#177

Post by dralley »

freediver wrote: post #173
temphnaccount wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say other way around is true. HN crowd won't like this but it's very hard to continuously update a product for the core userbase that Firefox has. (small sample size but I maintain a small privacy focused app and from my experience, most of the reviews I get are how it's missing features which competitors have or how it's unusable because it can't handle stuff without jeopardizing privacy focused nature of the ap…

> it seems most of the customers of privacy focused products want all the other features of competitors; most of the times without paying any money This is a business model question, right? Nothing prevents someone from making a great privacy focused browser and actually charging for it vs being directly (Brave?) or indirectly (Chrome, Firefox?) ad-monetized. Also in this context, referring to "customers of privacy f…

> This is a business model question, right? Mozilla has chosen to be indirectly ad-supported vs making a premium (as in paid-for) or a freemium browser as a business model. Nothing prevents someone from making a great privacy focused browser and actually charging for it?

Except the fact that nobody (relative to even their current userbase) would use it, and maintaining a browser is incredibly difficult and expensive.

It would be the death blow to their market share, which would destroy Gecko as a viable browser engine (not enough users to get websites to care about the bugs, or even necessarily get the bugs reported).

The only way that would work out is if they gave up on Gecko and switched to WebKit or Blink.

Their choice of business model isn't really much of a choice, it's the only viable option that gives them any influence whatsoever.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#178

Post by BeefWellington »

bm3719 wrote: post #48

There's a theory in the Free Software community that BigTech sponsorship of Mozilla was intended to bring about the current state of affairs. The idea is that MS, Google, and others really have no reason to donate to a direct competitor. Perhaps they did so because they knew it would give them control. That control was exercised over the years and now Mozilla is more a social justice advocacy organization than a foun…

> The sorry state of FF was the inevitable result.

What sorry state?

The thing I don't get about this narrative is that Firefox works and works very well for me and so when I see people saying things like this it doesn't jive with reality.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#179

Post by freediver »

dralley wrote: post #177
freediver wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems most of the customers of privacy focused products want all the other features of competitors; most of the times without paying any money This is a business model question, right? Nothing prevents someone from making a great privacy focused browser and actually charging for it vs being directly (Brave?) or indirectly (Chrome, Firefox?) ad-monetized. Also in this context, referring to "customers of privacy f…

> This is a business model question, right? Mozilla has chosen to be indirectly ad-supported vs making a premium (as in paid-for) or a freemium browser as a business model. Nothing prevents someone from making a great privacy focused browser and actually charging for it? Except the fact that nobody (relative to even their current userbase) would use it, and maintaining a browser is incredibly difficult and expensive.…

But then we are in conflict as we want Mozilla to create a superior product but we are not ready pay for it? One of these expectations has to give in then.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#180

Post by BeefWellington »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #155
pwdisswordfish8 wrote: post #40

> Then Google decided to make the tabs on top standard for its Chrome browser, which was designed for mobile devices not desktops. On a smartphone it may make sense, as there isn’t room for a full desktop style menu layout. On a desktop it is counterintuitive and breaks workflow with all other programs. Funnily enough, moving tabs to the top is actually one of the few UI changes I actually agree with and find more lo…

The most logical tab position is on the left or right, on desktop, because most of the space on a wide screen display is on the horrizontal axis, and you want to reserve as much vertical space as possible for scrolling websites (which happens vertically, and pretty much cannot be changed at this point, as it is baked into the web). There's an addon for that, but you no longer can hide the default tab bar! So now it j…

> The most logical tab position is on the left or right, on desktop, because most of the space on a wide screen display is on the horrizontal axis, and you want to reserve as much vertical space as possible for scrolling websites (which happens vertically, and pretty much cannot be changed at this point, as it is baked into the web).

This assumes a landscape-oriented monitor.

I would suggest trying this out on a portait oriented monitor. Tabs on top make the most sense there.

Also, I would generally suggest trying out a portrait oriented monitor. It's quite useful for coding, reading, etc.

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