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Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

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Re: Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

#131

Post by Retric »

wffurr wrote: post #105
Retric wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web isn’t a first class citizen on desktop as you can’t run new AAA games in one. The real difference is the web is a more limited UI that breaks down when your also forced to use the more limited interface of mobile. For example on desktop the top 10% or so of the screen is taken up by the browsers UI and tabs which is normally fine. On a tablet in keyboard mode your left with ~40% of the screen being useable. N…

AAA games are a weird example. It's one of the few app categories that really needs full native performance, although a lot of them can also scale nicely to run on older hardware. WebGPU and WebAssembly are getting close to matching the speed and capabilities of older hardware. Tab UI is possible to hide, and has been for some time. You can "app-ify" a web site into a dedicated window with no browser UI. ISTR apps th…

> Tab UI is possible to hide

That’s not a solution to the issue though. An independent application is managed by the OS, but websites are generally managed by the browser which has multiple tabs. Users don’t want every tab to be treated like it’s own app, which means websites need to play nice with the browsers UI even if the OS did give them full control.

Now, mobile OS have mechanisms to treat websites as native apps but your still stuck with web baggage. From a users perspective installing this website as a native app is simply worse than installing native app. Basically when you start improving the websites as app enough, such as gracefully handling network outages, you just end up with a native application.

From the other direction anything that would be fine as a website is already fine. You don’t get websites killing huge numbers of native apps because in that case there weren’t any native apps built to be killed.

Re: Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

#132

Post by 0xCMP »

GTP wrote: post #125

"The sandbox made software safe. Installing software on a PC is a risk. When you install an app, it can do anything to your computer, no restrictions. This design choice was enormously generative, and enabled the open-ended evolution of whole new product categories. It also enabled the evolution of viruses. The web was globally networked, and could not assume every link was safe. Code on the web was sandboxed—trapped…

Only by technical people and with massive tradeoffs. For example the fact that applications could until very recently read any file almost anywhere on the computer that the user could. Even if, clearly, that application had no reason to be able to read that file in particular.

Re: Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

#134

Post by jonnycomputer »

jeroenhd wrote: post #112
beefield wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real question is how did the web remain relevant while being so far behind this tectonic platform shift? Not sure it is relevant anymore for a non-trivial chunk of people - at least in mobile. Lately I have quite often needed to explain about a good web app accessible in browser but not in app store. And I am a bit bewildered. The amount of people pretty much unable to distinguish between browser, app store and…

I don't have an iPhone, can you expand on that location services part? Does Safari not show the permission popup when a website asks for it or something? On Android, websites can request location permissions, you can't access any of that stuff by default.

Not sure what op meant, but most computers don't come with built in GPS. Location services rely on other indicators of location, which are far less precise.

Re: Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

#135

Post by mumblemumble »

SiVal wrote: post #114
mattlondon wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real question is how did the web remain relevant while being so far behind this tectonic platform shift? We didn't all shift to to smartphones the instant they became available. It took a while for people to transition to smartphones. Likewise getting an app up and running (in addition to their websites) took time for most businesses, and many probably waited before jumping on the band wagon I am sure everyone…

"I am sure everyone on HN moved [from computers to smartphones] quickly" I may be wrong, but I suspect you have that backwards. My guess is that at least older HNers were slower to shift from powerful but complex creation tools (computers) to easy consumption toys (smartphones) designed for consumers who found computers with files and folders just too darned complicated to use. Until good, portable mapping and good-e…

I suspect everyone is wrong, but we're all subject to an availability bias.

We assume that things we actively notice other people doing in public are representative of what everyone (or everyone in some category to which we've assigned that person) is doing. We don't notice all the people not engaging in that behavior because they're not noteworthy.

Re: Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

#136

Post by nsonha »

Razengan wrote: post #117
nsonha wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

uhm... everything? "open" as in anyone can make a website and if it's has one good article, it will show up in some google query's result.

> "open" as in anyone can make a website Anyone can make an app too. > if it's has one good article, it will show up in some google query's result. Maybe buried deep in the 100th page, but not the front.

> Anyone can make an app too.

After they install some bloated IDE, learn some "tech", and pay the gatekeepers

> Maybe buried deep in the 100th page

But they can be found and share, as opposed to apps of a non existent category where average people publish what they are working on, their thoughts, or whatever. App Store and Google Play search would crumble at the scale of the number of websites in existence right now (~2 billions). Remember that search engines index what's inside those websites too not just their name and description.

Re: Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

#137

Post by anonu »

Fragoel2 wrote: post #71

I found the article really hard to read, the author took a long and convoluted path to expose his ideas. As for the question that the article raises, there are probably many co-occurring reasons, and a lot of comments make good points. However, one that I couldn't find listed is IMHO performance. I still find web apps (and web sites) to feel really sluggish and slow on everything that is not a top-tier phone. Again,…

I enjoyed his prelude with "The Great Oxidation" event... I've always known about it - but not under that term. Yes, a bit convoluted and contrived - but I enjoyed it anyway.

Re: Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

#138

Post by binkHN »

mattlondon wrote: post #92
bhawks wrote: post #59

When iPhone and Android hit the scene the 'rich' web experience was primarily flash, silverlight, and some java applets (taking their last breathe). Input APIs for touch, multitouch and gesture were a mess for many years in the browser. Media queries didn't become a w3c recommendation until 2012 so building a ux that looked pleasant really wasn't possible. The memory, cpu, GPU, storage and battery constraints were un…

> The real question is how did the web remain relevant while being so far behind this tectonic platform shift? We didn't all shift to to smartphones the instant they became available. It took a while for people to transition to smartphones. Likewise getting an app up and running (in addition to their websites) took time for most businesses, and many probably waited before jumping on the band wagon I am sure everyone…

> Even now, I still think "I'll wait and do this on a proper computer".

I'm routinely in the same boat, though it's less about the computer and more about not fighting with a tiny monitor. Most things built for mobile are "light" versions, as easily exposing all the bells and whistles on a 6" monitor would be a UI nightmare.

Re: Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

#139

Post by jumaro »

Fragoel2 wrote: post #71

I found the article really hard to read, the author took a long and convoluted path to expose his ideas. As for the question that the article raises, there are probably many co-occurring reasons, and a lot of comments make good points. However, one that I couldn't find listed is IMHO performance. I still find web apps (and web sites) to feel really sluggish and slow on everything that is not a top-tier phone. Again,…

It's interesting how different one can perceive the same article. I quite enjoyed how he first explained some general ideas in a narrative style.

I agree that there are likely different reasons that had an impact. Performance is a good addition and I think also the bad mobile connectivity in the earlier years of the smartphone area is another reason.

Re: Why did the web take over desktop and not mobile?

#140

Post by batty_alex »

andai wrote: post #85
anonu wrote: post #82

Also, what we call "mobile" is actually just 2 nice walled gardens with doors called "App Store" and "Play Store". That's at least another reason why the web is not pervasive on mobile: Apple and Google are quite happy that it's not that way because they can monetize their platforms with far more control than through the browser. The article references app stores pointing out that they reduced user friction in paymen…

That's right. Web standards are spearheaded by Google, while Apple's job is to make sure they don't work on iOS.

Tell me, why does Apple need to do exactly what Google does? I thought we liked different ideas and competition ‘round these parts?
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