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Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

theguardian.com

181–190 of 258 posts

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#181
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK it’s fairly common for SWEs to also work on a contractor basis (but they own their own personal company which contracts directly with the contracting company’s HR dept: no bodyshops or consulting firms are involved in this particular style of employment). This happens a lot because of how the UK’s tax-law is set-up (by accident, not by-design, though). ———————- Outside of the games industry, the UK’s been l…

I’d concur with your assessment of British management culture and the class reasons for why it occurs. Ironically this kind of thing is also the reason why the U.K. has never produced a peer to any of the FAANGs I think if you reify CP Snows thesis through the lens of the class system it turns out to be mostly correct.

> this kind of thing is also the reason why the U.K. has never produced a peer to any of the FAANGs

Well, ARM for one - but despite its incredible importance in the world, ARM isn't all that valuable because of their business-model. I was hoping that SoftBank and NVIDIA's purchase would make ARM more assertive in the marketplace and create value for themselves. I'm cautiously optimistic about their future though (as for the NVIDIA deal, why couldn't the UK let the deal go through but force NVIDIA to give the UK gov a non-expiring call-options to buy 51% of the company at the market-price but only in the interests of national-security or strategic-interest? That sounds reasonable.

In decades of the past I do think about what originally innovative companies like Sinclair, Amstrad, and others could have done to stay relevant for longer (which is difficult... their area in computers was entirely commoditized by the late-1990s)...

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#182

Personal Googler story: In Ads and in Search, at least as of 2010 or so, Google employed independent companies who hired "raters" to provide "ground truth" for the ML systems. For example, they would rate proposed ads for a given query, so that the ML system could learn from their "truth". For Search, they'd rate proposed search results for a given query. There was a whole pipeline to bring in the raters' results and…

1. So Google a was evil even before 2010? How strange.

2. Aren't Contractor like these fairly normal in Silicon Valley. Apple are the same as well. Even worst most contractor were told there is a chance of working inside Apple if your job was good enough.

3. Very rare HR does the right thing.

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#183

Personal Googler story: In Ads and in Search, at least as of 2010 or so, Google employed independent companies who hired "raters" to provide "ground truth" for the ML systems. For example, they would rate proposed ads for a given query, so that the ML system could learn from their "truth". For Search, they'd rate proposed search results for a given query. There was a whole pipeline to bring in the raters' results and…

These outside companies had minimal oversight from Google, by design. Could this be so that the google corporate toadies could bid out the lowest possible price, yet remain isolated from the predictably unethical, shoddy, or even illegal practices of the cut-throat priced contracting companies? It just seems strange that you’re lauding google HR, when your description suggests google was complicit, if not directly re…

For a large company it often makes little sense to directly hire temp employees and/or vet contractors.

The fact that a cottage industry of less than law abiding contracting agencies provide services to Google is more an issue of CA's employee protection laws than Google's responsibility.

Consider the current/default rate of wage theft via salary employees not paid for overtime despite being eligible; it's rampant in the SE industry because it's logistically easier to pay someone 10% more than to keep track of occasional overtime.

Therefore whenever a large company contracts something out to a smaller company, you should immediate expect more shady practices. My point is that Google's only role in this case is making something unknown... known - plenty of small shops unrelated to FAANGs break the same rules.

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#184

Personal Googler story: In Ads and in Search, at least as of 2010 or so, Google employed independent companies who hired "raters" to provide "ground truth" for the ML systems. For example, they would rate proposed ads for a given query, so that the ML system could learn from their "truth". For Search, they'd rate proposed search results for a given query. There was a whole pipeline to bring in the raters' results and…

It's worth noting that their search and other services rely on something similar:

https://arstechnica.com/features/2017/04/the-secret-lives-of...

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>costing potentially tens of thousands of people life changing amounts of money Have any numbers on this implication? How much is life changing in your opinion? Is there evidence this many people were shorted near that amount? It's hard to imagine that local wages are life changing for those "potentially tens of thousands of people" but paying market clearing wages would be significantly different.

If the amounts of money involved or the number of parties is small, why commit the fraud?

That doesn't address your claim. Do you have evidence for what you wrote?

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#186
post #89

jesus the lack of enforcement on stuff like this is outrageous. at the very least the company should be fined the garnished wages + some, the executives involved fired with no severance, and an external organization should do a compliance review

I thought garnishing wages was the problem in the first place...

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Penalties just have to be set correctly. If I don’t pay a parking meter I’m likely to lose up to 100x as much as I saved… if Google doesn’t pay its employees…

High potential punishment has never worked. If your city has exactly 0 'meter maids' what does the 100x fine do to deter you? Nothing. If your city is patrolling its meters with a frequency that guarantees you will be caught 100% of the time you will definitely not do it ever (if you knew or after being caught multiple times in a row) and the expenses for meter maid salaries would be exorbitant. No more money coming…

> High potential punishment has never worked.

And then you talk about meter maids. What do meter maids have to do with Google not breaking labor laws?

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#188
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the mechanism by which an entity that has the resources to spend on wrist-slaps is prevented from just continuing the behavior forever? I notice this a lot, and it feels like there are these opportunities everywhere that are exploited by corporations who know they'll skate every time with minimal financial impact.

Agreed. Executives need to start getting personal punishment if we want corporate behavior to change. Alternatively, start issuing fines such that it’s X percent of revenue plus Y percent of salary from all employees. Even a fine of 1% of annual pay would light a big angry fire under most employees, and perhaps incentivize them to stand up to the execs and refuse to follow illegal or unethical decisions.

That’s a fantastic way to make any employee shut up immediately the moment any form of inspector enters the building.

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#189
post #139
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the mechanism by which an entity that has the resources to spend on wrist-slaps is prevented from just continuing the behavior forever? I notice this a lot, and it feels like there are these opportunities everywhere that are exploited by corporations who know they'll skate every time with minimal financial impact.

The mechanism is by assigning visible but not devastating (despite the public demand for schadenfreude) punishments to executives found culpable. The goal is to maximize reporting and to change the culture. If the punishments are set too high, individual loyalties begin to dissuade reporting. You might not love your boss, but you might not want to see his kids lose their father. So executing executives has its downsi…

I think the important thing about the penalties is that any potential gains (and then some) are negated.

If someone does not pay their contractors enough, knocking them down a peg to the level of those contractors seems like an appropriate punishment.

They can work their way up again.

Re: Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

#190
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought the phrase "the exception that proves the rule" is nonsense, btw. There's no such "proof."

It is an old phrase. In this case, "proves" means something more like "tests". In modern terms, I'd say it's something like, "You don't really know you have a rule until someone has tested it by claiming an exception." e.g., setting a child's bedtime to 9pm will pose no challenge if they voluntarily go to bed at 8:30, it isn't until the exception comes along that you know whether or not you really have a rule.

I think the phrase 'proofing yeast' in bread making has the same connotations - you're testing that the yeast is still alive.
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