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A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

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Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#171

Post by slightwinder »

barbazoo wrote: post #91
aerosmile wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still a fact that in Germany you have to be careful how you express yourself. It was a total shock to me to arrive in the States and hear my cab driver unload on the US President at the time. He really wasn't choosing his words very carefully, to the point that I had to wonder if this was some kind of a test by the INS. I still chuckle today about how my views have changed since then, and how much more comfortab…

> It's still a fact that in Germany you have to be careful how you express yourself. Is that a fact? That's news to me. You might not hear as much "unloading" in Germany simply because it's not yet as polarized as it is in the US but certainly there wouldn't be any repercussions as far as I'm aware. What exactly are you talking about?

> Is that a fact? That's news to me.

Yes, it is. Insults and defamation are pretty common law-problems in Germany, because of which most people are rather careful in what they say about specific people. Basically, if they have power or money, don't trigger them, because the one paying will likely be you at the end. Though, Online this again a bit different, as many people have not much awareness about legal situation there, and law enforcement was a bit lax. This changed with new laws recently.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#172

Post by slightwinder »

disgu wrote: post #161
thunfischbrot wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it does happen, "all the time" seems to suggest it happens every week. I believe instead police raids on private homes for e.g. smaller drug related charges happen occasionally. This is the first case I hear of which is such an abuse of power about an insult online.

A spokesperson for the Hamburg Police said that they've carried out a ~50 raids of homes of people for insults/hate speech. And that's just one city. So more than once a week in a single city. Source: https://www.heise.de/news/Du-bist-so-1-Pimmel-Hamburgs-Innen...

This claim is disputed. And they are talking about hate speech, which usually is significant stronger than this case.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#173

Post by tpush »

djrogers wrote: post #13
jimmaswell wrote: post #7

And as an American, Germans/Australians/etc. will still insist they're more free than me because of something arbitrary like free healthcare. I don't think there's anywhere I'd feel particularly more "free" all things considered aside from maybe Mars.

It would be hard to argue that a country where it's illegal to call someone a dick is particularly free, if that indeed is the case.

It's actually very easy to do that, for example:

Murder: People lose the freedom to murder people, but gain the freedom to not be murdered. American society considers taking the first freedom away to result in better society overall. Germany does the same.

Insults: People lose the freedom to insult other people, but gain the freedom not to be insulted. German society considers taking away the first freedom to result in a better society overall. Americans take the opposite side here.

See, it's actually not at all a naive question of "who has more freedom", because each side can be argued to be more free than the other. Ultimately, it comes down to what choice results in a 'better', more livable society.

Germany and the US simply make different tradeoffs.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#174

Post by slightwinder »

gewa wrote: post #117
AmericanChopper wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure there will be formal investigations how this happened It happened because you allowed your politicians to pass laws that regulate allowable speech, as many other countries have done. I’m sure it was controversial, but most likely also had a considerable amount of support from people who didn’t like the kinds of speech they thought this would criminalize. A distinctive feature of this case is that it has cr…

It doesn't seem like you are very familiar with German politics or culture, but this is definitely an outlier. Freedom of speech is a central part of our constitution. Defamation is one of the very few ways and enforcement and interpretation is mostly restricted to defamation of policemen. This is the reason why this has resulted in an outcry as the proportionality does not respond to the interpretation how defamatio…

> but this is definitely an outlier.

It's an extreme case, but not an outlier. Especially since new laws and regulations for online-activity became active recently.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#175

Post by slightwinder »

Should be noted that this is a pretty strange case. The case came originally from the police, the politician was just asked later to report it too, because law demands it. And that insult is really, really weak, even by German standards. The raid was also unnecessary, as they already had the culprits' statement of guilty. And on top they even raided the wrong house.

On the side, looking up the culprit, he seems to be a political activist, from the left spectrum which has many bad blood in the city where this happened. So my guess is, this case has a political background, and the insult was just a pretext to justify the means.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#176

Post by disgu »

slightwinder wrote: post #172
disgu wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A spokesperson for the Hamburg Police said that they've carried out a ~50 raids of homes of people for insults/hate speech. And that's just one city. So more than once a week in a single city. Source: https://www.heise.de/news/Du-bist-so-1-Pimmel-Hamburgs-Innen...

This claim is disputed. And they are talking about hate speech, which usually is significant stronger than this case.

They're talking about both and what's your source for the fact that this claim is disputed? Who would even have such data if not the police. Please link your source as well as I've linked mine, which supports what I said.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#177

Post by slightwinder »

disgu wrote: post #176
slightwinder wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This claim is disputed. And they are talking about hate speech, which usually is significant stronger than this case.

They're talking about both and what's your source for the fact that this claim is disputed? Who would even have such data if not the police. Please link your source as well as I've linked mine, which supports what I said.

Your own link is saying it's disputed. And the Police claiming something, doesn't mean it must be true. Especially if we are talking about someone from public relation, which are notorious for 'miscommunication happening' with such details.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#178

Post by HotHotLava »

aerosmile wrote: post #44
gewa wrote: post #26

As a German I have to emphasize that this has no support at all in Germany. The uproar was huge today and its seen as a misuse of power by the politician. Especially as he is not acting as a politician but as representative of the public office of interior. The search warrant needs to be issued by a judge and I'm sure there will be formal investigations how this happened. I would not be surprised if he will be forced…

It's still a fact that in Germany you have to be careful how you express yourself. It was a total shock to me to arrive in the States and hear my cab driver unload on the US President at the time. He really wasn't choosing his words very carefully, to the point that I had to wonder if this was some kind of a test by the INS. I still chuckle today about how my views have changed since then, and how much more comfortab…

A while ago a Berlin court decided that online posts saying "Drecksfotze"/"Schlampe"/"Knatter sie doch mal einer so richtig durch, bis sie wieder normal wird." (filthy cunt/bitch/someone fuck her hard until she becomes normal again) are still below the threshold that top politicians have to endure before they can sue for insult, so the ability to "unload" on top politicians doesn't seem to be in any danger in Germany.

Although this ruling was widely criticized, because there is some societal understanding that politicians are also humans who need some level of protection, and that unrestricted hate speech always has the potential to transform into physical violence sooner or later.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#179

Post by disgu »

slightwinder wrote: post #177
disgu wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're talking about both and what's your source for the fact that this claim is disputed? Who would even have such data if not the police. Please link your source as well as I've linked mine, which supports what I said.

Your own link is saying it's disputed. And the Police claiming something, doesn't mean it must be true. Especially if we are talking about someone from public relation, which are notorious for 'miscommunication happening' with such details.

> Your own link is saying it's disputed.

No it doesn't. There's absolutely nothing in there that even hints at the fact that the numbers are disputed.

> And the Police claiming something, doesn't mean it must be true. Especially if we are talking about someone from public relation, which are notorious for 'miscommunication happening' with such details.

Sure. If you have better data that disputes what she's saying you're free to share it.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#180

Post by nautilius »

djrogers wrote: post #13
jimmaswell wrote: post #7

And as an American, Germans/Australians/etc. will still insist they're more free than me because of something arbitrary like free healthcare. I don't think there's anywhere I'd feel particularly more "free" all things considered aside from maybe Mars.

It would be hard to argue that a country where it's illegal to call someone a dick is particularly free, if that indeed is the case.

If you think the first amendment ensures your right to call anyone a dick, I suggest you go to the nearest cop you can find and start insulting him, his mother, his family, his children. I am sure if you tell him you’re just exercising your first amendment right, he will endure this for hours without batting an eye.
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