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Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

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Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#31

Post by cube13 »

juiceandjuice wrote: post #22
eridius wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google didn't argue that this patent purchase was for defensive reasons. They argued that it was for offensive reasons, that these patents could then be used to attack Google and force licensing fees onto Android. That entire argument is negated by the fact that Google had the option of bidding jointly on the patents and, therefore, having a license to them.

Google wanted the patents to fight back against Microsoft, since Microsoft is the one probably leveraging the greatest patent tax against Android devices. A joint ownership of the patents would be useless against Microsof. They could leverage them against Apple, or Oracle, or other parties that didn't own them, however, but even that could be to Microsoft's benefit. Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer,…

>Google wanted the patents to fight back against Microsoft, since Microsoft is the one probably leveraging the greatest patent tax against Android devices. A joint ownership of the patents would be useless against Microsof. They could leverage them against Apple, or Oracle, or other parties that didn't own them, however, but even that could be to Microsoft's benefit.

Here's the problem: Even if Google won the Novell bid, they would not be able to use the patents as a defense against MS. MS is licensing the patents from Novell, and I think that if any other party bought the patent pool, they would continue to license them from whomever bought the pool. So Google couldn't use them in a defensive manner. They could make life annoying for MS by increasing the fees, but that's about it, especially because if they increased the fees too high, they'd doing the exact same thing that MS is.

Plus, I think that the DoJ's decision to put the patents under GPLv2 and the OIN patent license would have been made regardless of who actually bought the pool, considering that a lot of the patents apply to Linux. So even if Google had won, it's not clear if it would have actually helped them in the end.

Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#32

Post by rbanffy »

kenjackson wrote: post #8
joebadmo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm being naively optimistic, but if we take Google to be both unafraid to take risks and long-term in its thinking, we can interpret all of its actions as spending as little as possible on patents while getting opponents to spend as much as possible and simultaneously undermining software patents at large. Seems to me like Google is taking advantage of a growing anti-patent sentiment in the tech community that…

Probably naively optimistic. ;-) The public generally doesn't care. The courts won't change course without congress. Congress won't make a big change. Minor reform at best (I doubt we'll see much more than what is already in the oven). The problem is that Android isn't viewed as innovative by most consumers. I think in a PR battle between Apple saying Google copies, and Google saying that Apple is blocking them from…

> Congress won't make a big change.

Every dollar Microsoft spends on patents cannot be spent on lobbies. And the other way around applies to Google: every dollar not spent chasing patents can be spent lobbying for patent reform.

And, while that leaves hardware patents untouched, they are not the problem. Microsoft is extorting Google partners using bogus software patents, not hardware ones.

Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#33

Post by rbanffy »

kenjackson wrote: post #5
yanw wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have misunderstood the whole thing (if you have even read any of it), they haven't retracted anything nor changed their position. There is no sense in buying patents jointly with Microsoft because then they couldn't use the patents to block Microsoft from extorting handset makers which defeats the whole purpose. It's not about buying patents for the sake of having patents. If any of the reporters had both…

There is no sense in buying patents jointly with Microsoft because then couldn't they use the patent to block Of course not. But you take those patents off the table. It's 7,000 fewer patents you have to deal with. Even under reasonable terms, if MS gets enough patents, they could raise licensing fees such that doing WP over Android is a no-brainer. Now the Android licensing fees are just a nuisance. Also are you act…

> It's 7,000 fewer patents you have to deal with

Those patents can become harmless if Google acquires some other patents Microsoft and Apple infringe and force them into cross-licensing.

Obviously, Apple and Microsoft would be more inclined to litigate because an unencumbered Android would doom their respective mobile platforms (Apple less than Microsoft, in this case)

Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#34

Post by kenjackson »

rbanffy wrote: post #32
kenjackson wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably naively optimistic. ;-) The public generally doesn't care. The courts won't change course without congress. Congress won't make a big change. Minor reform at best (I doubt we'll see much more than what is already in the oven). The problem is that Android isn't viewed as innovative by most consumers. I think in a PR battle between Apple saying Google copies, and Google saying that Apple is blocking them from…

> Congress won't make a big change. Every dollar Microsoft spends on patents cannot be spent on lobbies. And the other way around applies to Google: every dollar not spent chasing patents can be spent lobbying for patent reform. And, while that leaves hardware patents untouched, they are not the problem. Microsoft is extorting Google partners using bogus software patents, not hardware ones.

Every dollar Microsoft spends on patents cannot be spent on lobbies. And the other way around applies to Google: every dollar not spent chasing patents can be spent lobbying for patent reform

This isn't a matter of lobbyist, rather that congress already has a big piece of legislation they're moving now on patent reform. First-to-file is years in the making. And for 95% of patents its a total no-op. Congress just will not move quickly on this. And I think Google is going to focus its lobby efforts trying to keep people away from serious antitrust investigations against them, more than patent reform.

And, while that leaves hardware patents untouched, they are not the problem. Microsoft is extorting Google partners using bogus software patents, not hardware ones.

Google wants to make this anti-MS, because MS has a worse rep. Their real concern though is Apple. For example, notice who's not shown interest in the InterDigital patents? Microsoft. Who has? Apple, Google, Samsung.

Apple doesn't want to get $10/handset for Android. They want to block Android from shipping, period. And Apple IS using HW patents to block Android. For example, they've used HW design patents such as #D618,677. Or even this patent on volume rockers: #7,863,533.

MS is happy to just collect some revenue, and try to slow Android down so they can get their phones up to speed with Mango/Tango. MS will never make a lot of money directly from the cell phone market. 100M units sold is about $1.5B in direct revenue for them. Not chump change, but not a lot of money (on par with about how much money Visual Studio makes). For Apple this is almost their complete business now. They make $250/unit. $10 royalty from Samsung doesn't offset the fact that someone bought an Android machine rather than iOS.

Plus the Nortel patents give them a bunch of HW patents that Apple will likely assert, especially if Android begins to make another push.

Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#35

Post by juiceandjuice »

cube13 wrote: post #31
juiceandjuice wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google wanted the patents to fight back against Microsoft, since Microsoft is the one probably leveraging the greatest patent tax against Android devices. A joint ownership of the patents would be useless against Microsof. They could leverage them against Apple, or Oracle, or other parties that didn't own them, however, but even that could be to Microsoft's benefit. Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer,…

>Google wanted the patents to fight back against Microsoft, since Microsoft is the one probably leveraging the greatest patent tax against Android devices. A joint ownership of the patents would be useless against Microsof. They could leverage them against Apple, or Oracle, or other parties that didn't own them, however, but even that could be to Microsoft's benefit. Here's the problem: Even if Google won the Novell…

I can't believe Microsoft is licensing all of them, otherwise they wouldn't care about them as much. In fact, they probably wouldn't have even bothered to buy them, especially if they thought the DoJ would rule in the way that they did.

The DoJ ruling merely means they can't really leverage those patents against Google to stifle them more, which I'm sure the legal departments of Apple, Microsoft, and Oracle would have loved to do. It means those patents are less of a threat, but it wasn't a win for Google either.

I don't agree that the DoJ would have made the same decision in the case that Google had exclusively won the patents. I think the litigious nature of Apple, Oracle, and Microsoft, especially towards Android, had quite a bit to do with that decision.

I feel like Google is pulling the same thing they pulled with the FCC's 700Mhz Spectrum auction: Highlighting the faults of the system, advocating for consumers, getting some help from the government and trying to get their way without actually paying for it.

Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#36

Post by haberman »

giberson wrote: post #11

Wait wait wait wait. A joint acquisition of the Novell patents that gave all parties a license would have eliminated any protection these patents could offer to Android against attacks from Microsoft and its bidding partners. Having the license to the patent means you get to use the patented technology--no one can come after you. That's the protection, you get to use it. This is bullshit, Google didn't decline the of…

Google: MSFT (and others) have a cache of nuclear warheads pointed at us, and they outbid us when we tried to get our own stockpile for deterrence.

MSFT: We gladly would have been part owners in a stockpile that can never be used on us.

It would be like fighting the cold war by investing in nuclear stockpiles that can never be used unless both the USA and the USSR put their keys in the launcher. That's not how deterrence works.

Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#37

Post by sriramk »

Here's the response to this response :) http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/04/gentlemen-take-this-outside...

On an unrelated note, this is a very different kind of MSFT PR, and almost completely brought about by Frank Shaw. In the old days, MSFT would have put out a boring press release filled with corporate speak. Frank has brought a real-time, plain-speak, slightly aggressive approach to dealing with crises like this one and the earlier Bing/Google toolbar spat. Interesting shift in PR strategy.

Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#38

Post by patrickaljord »

kenjackson wrote: post #34
rbanffy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Congress won't make a big change. Every dollar Microsoft spends on patents cannot be spent on lobbies. And the other way around applies to Google: every dollar not spent chasing patents can be spent lobbying for patent reform. And, while that leaves hardware patents untouched, they are not the problem. Microsoft is extorting Google partners using bogus software patents, not hardware ones.

Every dollar Microsoft spends on patents cannot be spent on lobbies. And the other way around applies to Google: every dollar not spent chasing patents can be spent lobbying for patent reform This isn't a matter of lobbyist, rather that congress already has a big piece of legislation they're moving now on patent reform. First-to-file is years in the making. And for 95% of patents its a total no-op. Congress just will…

HW patents are useless against Android. Android is just software. If Apple want to attack OEM on hardware patents, good luck to them. Samsung, Motorola and even HTC (with S3 and even their own) have tons of HW patents, this is a game Apple cannot win as all OEM could block Apple from shipping their devices, remember, only only one patent from these OEM has to be valid to block Apple from shipping. Actually, the same can be said about software patents too...

Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#39

Post by kenjackson »

patrickaljord wrote: post #38
kenjackson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every dollar Microsoft spends on patents cannot be spent on lobbies. And the other way around applies to Google: every dollar not spent chasing patents can be spent lobbying for patent reform This isn't a matter of lobbyist, rather that congress already has a big piece of legislation they're moving now on patent reform. First-to-file is years in the making. And for 95% of patents its a total no-op. Congress just will…

HW patents are useless against Android. Android is just software. If Apple want to attack OEM on hardware patents, good luck to them. Samsung, Motorola and even HTC (with S3 and even their own) have tons of HW patents, this is a game Apple cannot win as all OEM could block Apple from shipping their devices, remember, only only one patent from these OEM has to be valid to block Apple from shipping. Actually, the same…

HW patents are useless against Android. Android is just software.

It's HW patents against devices running Android.

If Apple want to attack OEM on hardware patents, good luck to them.

If? Those patents I shown are part of actual lawsuits against Samsung/Motorola in court now. This isn't a hypothetical -- I'm telling you what is happening.

Samsung, Motorola and even HTC (with S3 and even their own) have tons of HW patents, this is a game Apple cannot win as all OEM could block Apple from shipping their devices, remember, only only one patents from these OEM has to be valid to block Apple from shipping.

Apple has taken that plunge already. Again, this isn't a hypothetical. All three companies you note are in court already. All three have countersued.

I'm not saying this might happen. I'm saying it is happening. Apple has already asked, and in at least one country received, injunctions on devices.

Apple isn't sitting around saying, "Lets just use SW patents to stop Android the operating system proper". They're using HW and SW patents and trade dress, and trademark to go after Android (indirectly by targeting OEMs and devices running the SW).

Google supporters seem to think this is a fight against the evil empire of Microsoft, and want to ignore Apple exists. It would be convenient if they didn't, but the fact of the matter is that Apple is likely to be the real fly in the ointment. MS might slow Android down, but it'll be Apple who crushes it.

Re: Google Responds To Microsoft’s "Gotcha": They’re Diverting Attention

#40

Post by sek »

sriramk wrote: post #37

Here's the response to this response :) http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/04/gentlemen-take-this-outside... On an unrelated note, this is a very different kind of MSFT PR, and almost completely brought about by Frank Shaw. In the old days, MSFT would have put out a boring press release filled with corporate speak. Frank has brought a real-time, plain-speak, slightly aggressive approach to dealing with crises like this on…

But he doesn't make a good impression, soon he has to explain why Microsoft is attacking android with patents. There was no "gotcha" and these people on Techcrunch see this whole thing as a reality show. It is sad because this is serious stuff, Microsoft is fighting Google with unfair methods.
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