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A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

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Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#101

Post by robbedpeter »

cercatrova wrote: post #50

Reading things like these in other (even developed, Western) nations: - UK surveillance state powers, anti-porn laws - Australian laws to detain you, break encryption - This German incident I sure am glad to live in a country where freedoms are explicitly guaranteed by a constitutional decree.

America has had its overreaches in recent history - the Florida covid whistle-blower and so forth.

I have to think that officials are hesitant to engage in many of the petty tyranny we see in other western countries, however, at a rate proportional to the degree to which their constituents are armed. If a police raid has a non trivial chance of turning into a shootout, it's a tool frequently withheld, and probably never used over a tweet.

The wrongful death process in civil courts would also destroy the life of any official who provoked a deadly raid over social media.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#102

Post by dzhiurgis »

barbazoo wrote: post #91
aerosmile wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still a fact that in Germany you have to be careful how you express yourself. It was a total shock to me to arrive in the States and hear my cab driver unload on the US President at the time. He really wasn't choosing his words very carefully, to the point that I had to wonder if this was some kind of a test by the INS. I still chuckle today about how my views have changed since then, and how much more comfortab…

> It's still a fact that in Germany you have to be careful how you express yourself. Is that a fact? That's news to me. You might not hear as much "unloading" in Germany simply because it's not yet as polarized as it is in the US but certainly there wouldn't be any repercussions as far as I'm aware. What exactly are you talking about?

I think defamation, slander or libel laws are basically non-existent in US.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#103

Post by sho_hn »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #89
thaumasiotes wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't want to editorialize the original title Somebody needs to - the title on Hacker News says the opposite of what the article title says. HN: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then raided his house. Reality: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then had his house raided by the police.

This is one of the cases where I'm going to ask why I'm downvoted. The HN title says the opposite of what the WaPo title says. And not only is this not a problem, but I'm causing problems by pointing it out?

I assume downvoters figured your point is obvious, but I found your comment valuable and useful.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#104

Post by croes »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #81
lrae wrote: post #2

I didn't want to editorialize the original title, but to add to it: 1) The insult used was "pimmel", german for "dick". 2) According to netzpolitik.org, the offender was summoned by the police before that, did show up, and did confirm there that it was his account. https://netzpolitik.org/2021/andy-grote-was-fuer-eine-pimmel... [german]

> I didn't want to editorialize the original title Somebody needs to - the title on Hacker News says the opposite of what the article title says. HN: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then raided his house. Reality: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then had his house raided by the police.

It wasn't even the house of the Twitter user.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#105

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #79
tomschlick wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the line of physical violence is pretty clear cut. The line at which someone gets offended is not and can vary drastically depending on the person, religion, current events, etc. Laws need clear definitions.

Insulting someone has an actual definition. It is not about being offended.

> Because as an American you put the border at physical violence but think verbal violence doesn't matter. You see that as freedom. I see it as a lack of culture. Far more than an ocean separates these two continents.

This, for instance, is clearly an insult; please report to the nearest detention center for your reeducation immediately. /s

But seriously, no; insults are subjective enough to be a terrible legal basis.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#106

Post by croes »

Barrin92 wrote: post #9

The German basic law protects people's personal honour (article 5, freedom of expression), and this goes back hundreds of years. ( strafrechtlicher Ehrschutz ). > "These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons and in the right to personal honour. " This is reflected in the German criminal code Beleidigung (Insult), unchanged for about 150 yea…

The problem in this case is that "Pimmel"(willy,pecker) is a minor insult which rather belongs to the schoolyard but they still did a house search although the perpetrator has long since confessed. On the other hand, Reanate Künast first had to fight in court for "Drecks Fotze" (dirty c**t) to be rated as an insult.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#107

Post by jcrites »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #102
barbazoo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's still a fact that in Germany you have to be careful how you express yourself. Is that a fact? That's news to me. You might not hear as much "unloading" in Germany simply because it's not yet as polarized as it is in the US but certainly there wouldn't be any repercussions as far as I'm aware. What exactly are you talking about?

I think defamation, slander or libel laws are basically non-existent in US.

They exist but primarily protect private people. If the court determines that you are a “public figure” (I forget the legal term; IANAL) — such as CEOs of publicly traded companies, or politicians, etc. — then the bar for winning a case for defamation goes up significantly.

Furthermore speech that is essentially opinion or critique is a defense against defamation that can cause the case to be dismissed before trial. 1st Amendment protections from the US Constitution.

If you’re careful to word what you’re saying as a statement of your opinion rather than an assertion of fact, then a defendant has little chance at winning a defamation lawsuit from what I understand.

Lastly, if what you’re saying is factually true then that offers an absolute defense against a defamation lawsuit; you would need to be able to prove that however.

There are some country-wide precedents that SCOTUS has ruled on; otherwise laws are set by individual states from what I understand.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#108

Post by PixyMisa »

robbedpeter wrote: post #101
cercatrova wrote: post #50

Reading things like these in other (even developed, Western) nations: - UK surveillance state powers, anti-porn laws - Australian laws to detain you, break encryption - This German incident I sure am glad to live in a country where freedoms are explicitly guaranteed by a constitutional decree.

America has had its overreaches in recent history - the Florida covid whistle-blower and so forth. I have to think that officials are hesitant to engage in many of the petty tyranny we see in other western countries, however, at a rate proportional to the degree to which their constituents are armed. If a police raid has a non trivial chance of turning into a shootout, it's a tool frequently withheld, and probably ne…

The Florida COVID "whistle-blower" has been arrested at every job she has ever held.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#109

Post by PixyMisa »

jimmaswell wrote: post #7

And as an American, Germans/Australians/etc. will still insist they're more free than me because of something arbitrary like free healthcare. I don't think there's anywhere I'd feel particularly more "free" all things considered aside from maybe Mars.

Not many Australians insisting they're more free right now.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#110

Post by PixyMisa »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #31
djrogers wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be hard to argue that a country where it's illegal to call someone a dick is particularly free, if that indeed is the case.

Then most of the world isn't free I fear. Why should it be legal to publicly insult someone? You can't punch people in the USA. Does that make the country not particularly free?

> Then most of the world isn't free I fear.

Well, exactly.

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