Everyone noticed. What was less obvious was that electron would grow this big and still be this bad. How is the memory usage still so inefficient?
Did you see that the top post on HN for a decent chunk of yesterday was celebrating that they were getting 200 rps? 200 rps was not something to brag about to your parents 15 years ago, but half of HN seems to have never heard of serving a static file through Nginx. I don't want to be overdramatic but it confused the hell out of me and it made me worry about the industry. How can you have all these people cargo-culti…
The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
141–150 of 256 posts
Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
#142There’s nothing wrong with the industry wanting to switch to layout engines for desktop applications. The problem is that this type of runtime environment is still fairly new. Desktop OS’s should have HTML/JS runtime built into the application layer, maybe even deeper. It’s such a dominant user functionality these days. Instead we get a bunch of headless chrome instances. There needs to be an engine that maybe isn’t…
They all do but good luck convincing any developer to develop something they have to test in multiple places with different engines when they can just only test in chrome and ship a bloated executable and the problem is negated.
Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
W11 only, sadly.
The parent's link? Maybe. But I guess this only means that W11 ships with an X server, right? On Windows 10, you just need to install your own X server. I'm using VcXsrv with great success to use GUI software running on WSL1.
Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
#144We have been doing multiplatform development for a long time. It is in our company's interest not to depend on a single provider(like Apple, MS or Google) for anything.
It is also in those single provider interests to make you depend on them as much as they can, because every company wants to become a monopoly. If you can not change provider overnight, they have a virtual monopoly over you.
E.g MS spent literarily billions in order to make game developers to develop exclusively for Windows using technologies like DirectX and when people started using graphic cards for everything, like CAD, CAE, crypto, Microsoft(and Nvidia as her partner) benefited immensely from their virtual monopoly.
Technologies like objective C, C sharp, Azure or swift are designed so you can not escape the company platform. So easy to get in, so hard to move your code to other platforms once you have been programming for years on them.
Unless you spend as many Billions as Microsoft or Apple or Google has spent in alternative platforms, those alternative platforms will have significant caveats.
What we do is compromise, like with so many things in engineering. We use Linux, we use web technologies, but we also create native programs in Macs and Windows and tablets(Including Android NDK) because there is no way around it. You must use native for things that must be efficient and are extremely demanding, or some times it is just way easier. Most of our code, like 90-98% is portable libraries that we could use in every platform, but that 2% to 10% must be done native.
One of the great things of our approach is that we are not opinionated. We generate automatically code for different platforms, or different OS and we could just compare without prejudices. If tomorrow the Web backbend were as good as native we would shift our focus on that platform. But it is not today, very far from it.
If the only thing that you do is using programs like text editors that were available in the 90s, then sure, you can use electron for everything, spending gigabytes of memory for opening a single file.
But if you don't you are better served if you remember that it is going to be a constant fight. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Companies are never going to stop trying to lock you in, and you should never stop wanting more freedom.
Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't get this. I've used GTK, Qt, Tk and FLTK software in OSX, Windows and Linux. The rest is usually covered by standard libraries and third party libraries. So I take it this approach is disqualified on your terms for not being meaningful, which raises the question about what "meaningful" means. My own guess is that it's a matter of convenience of distribution: enter an URL and you can start using the app.
> GTK, Qt, Tk and FLTK Aren't all of those C/C++? There's time and place for manually managing memory, figuring out UB and segfaults. If you're trying to render a frame full of AAA graphics in under 15 milliseconds, or go through a million requests a second, then I don't mind it. But if I'm just writing an email client...
No.
> If you're trying to render a frame full of AAA graphics in under 15 milliseconds
Irrelevant.
> But if I'm just writing an email client...
Use bindings.
Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
#146Honestly I can't fathom the same company that made vs code which is really snappy for an electron app made Teams. It's almost like the best electron app vs the worst electron app.
Probably different teams and a cast difference in developer experience. MS likely didn't care that much about teams.
If you’ve ever had to work with MS recently it’s honestly all they talk about so I don’t think that’s the case.
Think it’s more a case the VS Code team are probably passionate VS Code users so care about what they’re building.
Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
#147I should probably look into Linux phones before the corporations turn my phone into an appliance.
Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
#148... "And nobody noticed"??? Gsuite, office365, etc, offer this as a _feature_. People have noticed. Even as far as election goes, tons of people complain about the higher ram usage, bloat, etc. Sure, non technical users may not know why, but technical users do, and almost everybody notices a difference in some form or another.
I’m not sure that is the point of the article. Gsuite and Office 365 run in the browser, so people know that those are web apps. How many people would know that Slack and Spotify are basically just web apps too?
For everyone else, all doubt is removed when the app presents you a 501 or 404 error.
Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't even care about the memory footprint personally. I can buy more RAM. It's that every Electron app makes up all of it's own navigation paradigms, doesn't integrate well into the OS, and always feels slow.
I find this pretty funny. In the 00s and early 10s, the Linux desktop was criticized because of the inconsistency in the look and feel, e.g. using Firefox (GTK) in KDE (Qt) plus random apps in Motif, TK, or straight up Swing. The consistency of Windows and OS X desktops was desired and looked for: people migrated themes across toolkits, synchronized font settings, etc. Now every Electron app does their own thing and…
Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)
#150For example, it meant that I was able to join a Microsoft Teams meeting from my phone, without installing any apps (I prefer to rely on my browser's sandbox to protect me from abusive behavior apps like to engage in). They do refuse to work in Firefox and you need to switch Chrome to desktop mode, but it works. Not perfectly, but well enough.
It also means that teams with limited resources can reuse a lot of code across platforms, making cross-platform development much more likely to happen.