“Nihilism is OK” is not OK • Hacker News Board

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#41

Post by HeyZuess » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:36 AM UTC

> Nihilism includes moral nihilism, the claim that there are no morally good or bad actions. If people believed and acted on that, we’d have the nihilist apocalypse.

I think this is true, morally good or bad has been a moving target for some time, they are not concrete. Rather they are derived from inner definitions, and outside definitions at a point in time, and even then questionable.

While my knowledge of Nihilism is very small, but I would gather that Moral Nihilist are not rampaging through the street killing people, as while there is no concrete version of morals, there is no need to act in a manner which harms people, after all why would it matter.

And now I am going back to my solipsism.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#42

Post by benjaminjosephw » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:39 AM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #31

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individualism is a closed system. Any attempt to find meaning in isolation as a lone consciousness is subject to the same kind of force as the entropy of closed physical systems. It becomes almost impossible to pattern match on significance because the dataset is too small and the variance in factors that might influence our thinking is too great. All Nihilists are focused only on their own existence because they fai…

And yet, as Sartre shows us in No Exit, it is the very presence of other humans and our being forced to view ourselves from the perspective of others that causes us so much existential dread and pain. The mere presence of other sentient beings which perceive, judge, interpret, and conceive of us in some abstract mental model of our being, as opposed to the actual and/or self-perception of our being, causes untold psy…

The realities of dread and pain are part of reality - no doubt about that. So are joy and love. A pure materialist view would have to accept these realities without judgement.

We _want_ to be able to say that suffering and pain imply meaningless, but I don't think that is consistent with a purely materialistic understanding of reality. It is what it is - that's all that can be said.

The materialistic view takes an epistemological stance that precluded the possibility of the metaphysical. That's not the same thing as the actual non-existence of the metaphysical. Fiat money, power and the nation state are all concepts that don't have material existence yet these are realities non-the less. The material world doesn't set the limits to reality, just the context.

Even if you see humans/society as just really complex versions of a cellular automata (or composed of nested automata) you can't deny that the emergent properties are more meaningful/significant than the material realities that compose them. The material world isn't a panacea of meaning either.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#43

Post by scns » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:51 AM UTC

causasui wrote: post #14

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our…

Grew up in a religious house too. Acceptance of what is and refraining from dividing everything in good or bad, ie letting go of a learned (imposed?) judgemental/religious attitude, was key for me.

Turned vegan too, but not for ethical reasons. Saw the movie Game Changers and immediately switched. I want to live a long healthy life.

I was was happy to discover that evolutionary biologists have similar ideas. I think of myself and other humans as naked apes with a mind which is on the one hand extremely weak (If the elephant wants someting else, the rider is powerless) but on the other hand able to believe in ideas which are detrimental to its' own health. I think the meaning of life is the same for humans, bacteria and all other living beings: survive and procreate, nothing more. For many minds this does not seem to be enough, for me it is.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#44

Post by lucky1759 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:53 AM UTC

gremloni wrote: post #30

Of course nihilism is bad for society but it’s the undeniable truth. Meaning is a made up word. It’s a random cocktail of hormones as a reaction to a story you tell yourself. I don’t even know why people need a “meaning” or purpose to life. Just waking up and existing is incredibly fun.

Most people suffer everyday. Poverty, illness, war.. etc are more common than decadent Western lifestyles.

The reason why religiosty is so common among poor countries is because, without religion, the logical conclusion would be to stop existing...

Which is exactly the position the West was in pre-renaissance. Without religion society would never have succeeded through ages of negative utility.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#45

Post by yann2 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 8:07 AM UTC

scns wrote: post #43

causasui wrote: post #14

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our…

Grew up in a religious house too. Acceptance of what is and refraining from dividing everything in good or bad, ie letting go of a learned (imposed?) judgemental/religious attitude, was key for me. Turned vegan too, but not for ethical reasons. Saw the movie Game Changers and immediately switched. I want to live a long healthy life. I was was happy to discover that evolutionary biologists have similar ideas. I think…

Obviously its not enough. Right now my mind needs icecream and music for example.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#46

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 8:44 AM UTC

scns wrote: post #43

causasui wrote: post #14

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our…

Grew up in a religious house too. Acceptance of what is and refraining from dividing everything in good or bad, ie letting go of a learned (imposed?) judgemental/religious attitude, was key for me. Turned vegan too, but not for ethical reasons. Saw the movie Game Changers and immediately switched. I want to live a long healthy life. I was was happy to discover that evolutionary biologists have similar ideas. I think…

[deleted]

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#47

Post by 0-_-0 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

causasui wrote: post #14

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our…

What does the heat death of the universe have to do with meaning?

Just to apply reductio ad absurdum to the anti-natalism argument: If there was a virus that would prevent all animals and humans on the planet from reproducing, leading to the quick extinction of all consciousness, would that be a moral good?

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#48

Post by pssm » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 9:20 AM UTC

ToJans wrote: post #21

causasui wrote: post #14

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our…

Might I suggest you to take a look at "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius? It might be a long shot, not maybe you can find some peace in it... Update: ...and if stoicism isn't your thing, maybe epicurism is...

I also suggest the "How to Think Like a Roman Emperor" as an introduction to the subject - it's a good read.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#49

Post by codebolt » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

causasui wrote: post #14

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our…

> I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our own individual existences, the universe will inevitably suffer heat death, from which there is no eternalistic escape.

Seems that this view of human existence as something inherently temporary underpins a lot of nihilist thinking. However, there is a lot of scientific evidence in favor of eternalism (i.e. the philosophy of time, as opposed to presentism) if you only care to look.

For one, it seems to me you have to basically reject all of relativistic physics if you want to maintain a perspective on the universe where only the present moment exists. This is because the relativity of simultaneity tells us that there is no such thing as a universal present moment. How can only a single moment exist when there is no such thing as a single moment?

I think a lot of people who despair in nihilist thought would do a lot better if they simply updated their understanding of universe from being stuck in the 19th century.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#50

Post by craftoman » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:32 AM UTC

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #27

causasui wrote: post #14

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our…

Individualism is a closed system. Any attempt to find meaning in isolation as a lone consciousness is subject to the same kind of force as the entropy of closed physical systems. It becomes almost impossible to pattern match on significance because the dataset is too small and the variance in factors that might influence our thinking is too great. All Nihilists are focused only on their own existence because they fai…

"All Nihilists are focused only on their own existence because they fail to see reality"

That's the most dumb thing I ever heard since the last conversation I had few days ago about asexuality. It's equivalent to the same argument I heard which was "people are asexuals because they don't have sex more often" or "you're straight because you didn't tried anything else besides that".