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The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

char.gd

91–100 of 256 posts

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#91
If desktops could make a platform where I can write my app in one language, host it on my own server and get global distribution running in a sandboxed environment then I'd consider it.

The web distribution model is just so much nicer for users and devs. No app stores, no install/uninstall process, no access to system internals.

I can deploy an app today and just send a link to my friends for them to use it. It takes a day just to put together an app store submission with all the necessary screenshots and configuration, not to mention the lengthy review process which could then deny me permission to launch.

The difficulty and uncertainty means that many MVPs launch web first where there's less risk, and more reach, for the same amount of effort. Only after a successful web launch are native apps developed.

Sure there are exceptions if the app requires features not yet available on the web (persistence, actually good multithreading, low level access) but the feature gap is closing slowly.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#92
post #50

Everyone noticed. What was less obvious was that electron would grow this big and still be this bad. How is the memory usage still so inefficient?

Did you see that the top post on HN for a decent chunk of yesterday was celebrating that they were getting 200 rps? 200 rps was not something to brag about to your parents 15 years ago, but half of HN seems to have never heard of serving a static file through Nginx. I don't want to be overdramatic but it confused the hell out of me and it made me worry about the industry. How can you have all these people cargo-culti…

Whats Nginx. Is that AWS.

(Kidding)

As has been the case since the emergence of MicroSoft, companies in software/internet rely on general ignorance of users/developers for their business plans to succeed. Making people smarter and more self-reliant, running their own software for themselves, is not part of the plan. Making them reliant on someone else is the plan.

Desktop has too much potential for user control. Web is safely under the control of a handful of gatekeeper companies. Earlier HN submission today was promotion of a book by Microsoft Chief Legal Officer about how people are not competent to run their own software and should therefore let companies like MS run it for them in the cloud. Foreward written by Chief Marketing Officer, Microsoft. (Kidding again)

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#93

It is exactly the failure of Microsoft and Apple to propose any meaningful cross-platform API. Both are fighting to increase vendor lock-in - it is in their best interests that apps written on Windows don't work on macOS/iOS and the other way round. Linux/OS folks themselves are unable to solve this problem on their own and it becomes a mouse-and-cat game. The popularity of web apps helped to reduce the problem, but…

Microsoft has destroyed the Windows desktop singlehandedly on their own. Since Win8 and “Metro” they moved away from having consistent UI widgets like it was in Windows 2000 or XP but instead made the Windows desktop a Wild West if different UI paradigms. Even the ribbon introduced a new UI paradigm that wasn’t available to third party devs. If even MS themselves doesn’t bother to be consistent then developers certai…

I'm in the same boat. I was asked recently to develop a small custom app for a library that would need to be maintained for decades. This left me scratching my head as to which GUI technology to choose to minimize the danger of it being broken/unsupported after 10 years. Paradoxically, I think Win32 might be the safest choice as MS can't really innovate (=break) too much here anymore (although I might underappreciate their skills in this regard).

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#94
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everything other the browser and the text editor is now a web app. The media creation community is looks at the web programming community and wondering what the hell you are talking about, and why your view is so narrow. Blender, ZBrush, Unreal Engine, Visual Studio, ProTools, Reaper, Substance Suite etc. etc. the list goes on and on. These kind of applications often have extremely heavy system requirements and are…

Visual effects artists and embedded programmers are very niche communities (former embedded SW engineer here). Probably something like 90% of people just need a browser 90% of the time. It's kind of a no brainer from a business point of view. If your app can be browser based and still functional, it should be. Of course there are drawbacks but the economics are in the browser's favor.

> If your app can be browser based and still functional, it should be.

We can choose to disagree on this point, however...

>> everything other the browser and the text editor is now a web app

It is a long way from the parent's comment (above) to "if your app can be browser based and still functional, it should be".

Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't, but that doesn't contradict my point that the parent is incorrect in that "everything other the browser and the text editor is now a web app". You're arguing a different thing.

There are plenty of apps, as I described above, that don't have functional web-based equivalents, and probably will not for a very long time to come. There are enough niche industries with such requirements that combined, they will act as a counterweight to the push for everything to run as a web app for quite some time.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#95
The technological change is following the changes in the nature of software development.

Perhaps the most important one is the wide-spread contamination with the poisonous mix of VC money with the start-up "move fast and break things" mentality. Notice how the arguments pro Electron always include speed of development, speed of deployment, etc. (dev-focused) and the counter-arguments include performance, usability, etc. (user-focused). Using Electron is mainly beneficial for the developers - they don't need to have so much experience, there's plenty of JS developers available, they don't need to try hard.

Another one is the voracity for control and captive user bases. Nowhere does it become more clear that one has no say in the direction a piece of software is going than when using a web app. Today when you load the app the menu's on top, tomorrow it's hidden on the left, next week you're part of an A/B test and so on. Enjoy the ride and consider yourself lucky if you can at least export your data.

On the native side, both Apple and Google have tried hard (and succeeded) to reduce the value of software to about 1 EUR. This has led to bogus subscription models and an extreme proliferation of ads and tracking. Microsoft have gone crazy years ago and made a complete mess of their desktop offering - one wouldn't know what to develop in even if they wanted to build a native application. And most Windows apps have such mediocre looks, that an Electron app may even be an upgrade. :-)

Finally, the thing that bothers me the most - way too many developers are working on building an online public image, an attractive GitHub profile (and it has to be GitHub), a following. We're in the era of performative software development. The peacocking and the drama reserved for the silliest of the artistic domains are now firmly entrenched in the online world of software development. What the front-end development community lacks in experience and common sense more than makes up for in numbers and willingness to quarrel.

Here's something funny in closing: the Nylas Mail project mentioned in the article has been meanwhile abandoned. But apparently one of the orignal authors created a fork called Mailspring. Directly quoted from the first paragraph of the GitHub README:

"It replaces the JavaScript sync code in Nylas Mail with a new C++ sync engine based on Mailcore2. It uses roughly half the RAM and CPU of Nylas Mail and idles with almost zero "CPU Wakes", which translates to great battery life. It also has an entirely revamped composer and other great new features."

There's an elegance and beauty to the raw power of a program running natively on the CPU that a bumbling hippo like Electron can never dream of. Commercial software development always had a survival of the fittest aspect to it, but now we're stuck in a local optimum where mediocre but easier to develop solutions are able to evolve fast enough and make enough money or draw enough of a community to survive and thrive - at least until the VC money runs out or the devs get tired of the clumsiness of the hippo.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#96
post #50

Everyone noticed. What was less obvious was that electron would grow this big and still be this bad. How is the memory usage still so inefficient?

Development / product culture. Electron should have a fix time quantum, for example 6 weeks, and make performance:feature ratio 4:1. Otherwise, floods of ongoing features development will also produce "Bug as a Denial of Service", and performance improvement yields negative result.

tldr; just pay tech debt ASAP.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#97
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how old you are, but at 57 and having been "computing" for 35 years, I'd say that this is wrong, on two levels. 1. C has been the green field language for application for decades. 2. The major obstacle is precisely cross-platform development; without a fairly thick layer to abstract away the OS API/platform, it's very difficult. In addition to those two, there's the detail that lots of development projec…

I'm a developer in my mid 20s with a few friends who are software engineers. None of them worked with C for years. The jobs here are JavaScript, Java, Python, etc.

Depends on where you live I guess ? When I was in Bordeaux there were almost as many c/c++ jobs than java/php/js jobs, and more than Python jobs.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#98
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do want to see a return to native apps but there are no worthwhile incentives to do so outside of "our customers demanded a native app." Every native app I have ever used has been many times snappier than its Electron/Web equivalent. Think on why customers demand native apps.

But are you willing to pay 2x for that extra snappiness?

They will ask for Open Source alternatives, we have seen this for more than a decade. I only saw a few comments that say "you should get rid of free tier" per year.

  $5 -> this looks cheap, probably poor quality  
  $49 -> this is quite too much  
  $99 -> are you kidding me

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#99
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do want to see a return to native apps but there are no worthwhile incentives to do so outside of "our customers demanded a native app." Every native app I have ever used has been many times snappier than its Electron/Web equivalent. Think on why customers demand native apps.

But are you willing to pay 2x for that extra snappiness?

So you started writing crappy apps because it was easier for you and now you want to be paid double to fix your shit?

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#100

There’s nothing wrong with the industry wanting to switch to layout engines for desktop applications. The problem is that this type of runtime environment is still fairly new. Desktop OS’s should have HTML/JS runtime built into the application layer, maybe even deeper. It’s such a dominant user functionality these days. Instead we get a bunch of headless chrome instances. There needs to be an engine that maybe isn’t…

yea but chromium has been ported to everything so your app will work exactly the same on any device chromium runs, that's the issue with writing native apps.. you then have to port it to all the devices and update on OS changes.

Qt works in more places than chromium and is much more native - it's even the native platform for multiple OSes
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