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“Nihilism is OK” is not OK

meaningness.com

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Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#31

Post by rjbwork »

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #27
causasui wrote: post #14

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our…

Individualism is a closed system. Any attempt to find meaning in isolation as a lone consciousness is subject to the same kind of force as the entropy of closed physical systems. It becomes almost impossible to pattern match on significance because the dataset is too small and the variance in factors that might influence our thinking is too great. All Nihilists are focused only on their own existence because they fai…

And yet, as Sartre shows us in No Exit, it is the very presence of other humans and our being forced to view ourselves from the perspective of others that causes us so much existential dread and pain. The mere presence of other sentient beings which perceive, judge, interpret, and conceive of us in some abstract mental model of our being, as opposed to the actual and/or self-perception of our being, causes untold psychic suffering.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but attempting to create meaning strictly in relation to others is no panacea for existential dread and the fundamental nihilism of what I, and the OP, believe to be reality - that is, a strictly physicalist universe devoid of metaphysical or supernatural forces or beings.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#32

Post by causasui »

ToJans wrote: post #21
causasui wrote: post #14

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our…

Might I suggest you to take a look at "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius? It might be a long shot, not maybe you can find some peace in it... Update: ...and if stoicism isn't your thing, maybe epicurism is...

I good friend of mine gifted me this book some years ago. I ended up reading it during a jury duty stint, incidentally. Seems appropriate in hindsight.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#33

Post by rramadass »

The Author is basically arguing against a "Straw-man" of his own making. So the entire post/book premise is pointless.

"Nihilism"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism) is the one backdrop "True Reality" against which we paint our chosen "Schools of Philosophy". This is quite independent of the problems of "Consciousness" and "Free Will".

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#34

Post by rramadass »

rjbwork wrote: post #31
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individualism is a closed system. Any attempt to find meaning in isolation as a lone consciousness is subject to the same kind of force as the entropy of closed physical systems. It becomes almost impossible to pattern match on significance because the dataset is too small and the variance in factors that might influence our thinking is too great. All Nihilists are focused only on their own existence because they fai…

And yet, as Sartre shows us in No Exit, it is the very presence of other humans and our being forced to view ourselves from the perspective of others that causes us so much existential dread and pain. The mere presence of other sentient beings which perceive, judge, interpret, and conceive of us in some abstract mental model of our being, as opposed to the actual and/or self-perception of our being, causes untold psy…

Well said!

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#35

Post by Akronymus »

croes wrote: post #5

"In popular use, the term commonly refers to forms of existential nihilism, according to which life is without intrinsic value, meaning, or purpose." So the whole post argues against something that most probably isn't even meant.

For me, nihilism is that nothing matters, so, suffering isn't part of some grand design either.

So, why not try to do your best anyways?

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#36

Post by tomlockwood »

I did read the whole article but had already come to my conclusions when I read this passage:

> Unfortunately, existentialism is difficult to maintain, because mostly we can’t choose meanings. Some meanings are nearly impossible to either alter or overlook, and so are some meaninglessnesses.

Then there was this passage which further put the nail in the coffin:

> Where existentialism said meaning must be an arbitrary individual choice, pomo makes it an arbitrary social choice. When social groups make different choices, there is no basis for negotiation, because both are equally arbitrary. Then all conflicts reduce to raw power struggles.

> This “banal nihilism” is the ideological basis for much current populist authoritarianism.3 These movements are simultaneously dogmatically eternalistic and chaotically nihilistic. The tribal ”values” are absolute, and must not be questioned or disrespected; but truth, morality, and justice have no meaning beyond what we want this week.

These interpretations of Existentialism and Postmodernism are so catastrophically wrong that they invalidate the entire article. A cursory reading of Existentialist discussion of "bad faith" should cover the first. For Postmodernism - first off, Postmodernism is such a loose coalition of thinkers that any totalizing statement about them, is likely, wrong (at least in part). Secondly, Postmodernism generally encourages a skepticism about all hierarchies of knowledge, including what the author describes as 'tribal "values"'. Under Postmodernism, these values are questioned and, for example, "deconstructed".

My suggestion is that the author ought to stop thoughtlessly regurgitating what Mr. Jordan Peterson has to say about Existentialism and Postmodernism and expand his reading to cover the texts themselves.

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#38

Post by rramadass »

akvadrako wrote: post #29
jhbadger wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of "moral" codes can simply be justified by practicality. I think killing should be illegal, not because of some lofty ideas of the sacredness of human life, but because I don't want to be killed by somebody else. Same argument against theft -- I don't want my stuff robbed.

Most commonly accepted morals come down to one thing: they contribute to the survival of that moral. Societies with a moral against killing thrive and spread compared to those without.

What? Patently Wrong!

Re: “Nihilism is OK” is not OK

#39

Post by scns »

rjbwork wrote: post #31
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individualism is a closed system. Any attempt to find meaning in isolation as a lone consciousness is subject to the same kind of force as the entropy of closed physical systems. It becomes almost impossible to pattern match on significance because the dataset is too small and the variance in factors that might influence our thinking is too great. All Nihilists are focused only on their own existence because they fai…

And yet, as Sartre shows us in No Exit, it is the very presence of other humans and our being forced to view ourselves from the perspective of others that causes us so much existential dread and pain. The mere presence of other sentient beings which perceive, judge, interpret, and conceive of us in some abstract mental model of our being, as opposed to the actual and/or self-perception of our being, causes untold psy…

And this suffering is the key to unlocking your freedom IMHO. The best thing i read red about it so far is from Khalil Gibrans' The Prophet:

And a woman spoke, saying, Tell us of Pain. And he said: Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding. Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain. And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy; And you would accept the seasons of your heart, even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields. And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief. Much of your pain is self-chosen. It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self. Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquility: For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen, And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips, has been fashioned of the clay which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears.

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