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The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

char.gd

61–70 of 256 posts

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#61

Web still has by far the best developer experience + cross platform stability, not to mention the lowest barrier to entry. I would be really interested to see what happens with Tauri[1] as that looks like a more promising alternative to Electron. I do want to see a return to native apps but there are no worthwhile incentives to do so outside of "our customers demanded a native app." [1] https://tauri.studio/en/

> I do want to see a return to native apps but there are no worthwhile incentives to do so outside of "our customers demanded a native app."

I work in the public sector of Denmark, which has always had native Windows apps for most of our systems. The past few years of suppliers moving to web based solutions have been such a blessing.

Out of the around 300 it-systems we operate, the ones running in a browser are build on a web-front of some sort, electron, included are by far the favoured experience among our 10.000 users. We’ve run a benchmark on our major systems for the past decade, and the only ones to break a 8/10 rating among 500+ users are based on angular, react, electron or vue.

One of our old documenting systems has a Windows application and is also moving to a web-client. The old application scored a 1.2/10 the web client scored a 8.5/10. Covid had a massive impact on this, as the native client worked horribly over a DNS, but it never scored a rating over 5/10.

You can certainly put up the argument that Danish development houses should get better at building native applications, and that’s a fair point. Reality is that they aren’t, however, so the fact that these same developers are also building the new and well received web-based UIs is a good way to show how the impact goes far beyond developer experience.

I think Microsoft is the only company that has continually scored well on native applications that see massive usage, because the office package has always been popular. But isn’t much of the modern office UI build with react?

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#62
post #50

Everyone noticed. What was less obvious was that electron would grow this big and still be this bad. How is the memory usage still so inefficient?

Did you see that the top post on HN for a decent chunk of yesterday was celebrating that they were getting 200 rps? 200 rps was not something to brag about to your parents 15 years ago, but half of HN seems to have never heard of serving a static file through Nginx.

I don't want to be overdramatic but it confused the hell out of me and it made me worry about the industry. How can you have all these people cargo-culting into frameworks and languages and they don't know the fundamentals?

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#63

Electron apps are still desktop apps. The web however did eat the desktop: everything other the browser and the text editor is now a web app. I have literally 4 apps that I use on my machine: terminal and postman in addition to the above. I am wondering why mobile apps too haven't entirely been replaced by Web apps

> I am wondering why mobile apps too haven't entirely been replaced by Web apps Simple equation. Efficiency of a mobile device is directly proportional to the efficiency of the runtime the apps are running on. For example Objective-C / swift has a GC-less memory model which just means we get to do more with less memory. This is how iPhone typically ship with lesser RAM than Android phones, yet do everything that Andr…

> For example Objective-C / swift has a GC-less memory model which just means we get to do more with less memory. This is how iPhone typically ship with lesser RAM than Android phones, yet do everything that Android phones are capable of surprisingly well.

You forgot CPU that's light-years ahead of anything that Qualcomm or Samsung have. But, please, keep thinking that it is about Swift/Objective-C, lol.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#64

Electron apps are still desktop apps. The web however did eat the desktop: everything other the browser and the text editor is now a web app. I have literally 4 apps that I use on my machine: terminal and postman in addition to the above. I am wondering why mobile apps too haven't entirely been replaced by Web apps

> everything other the browser and the text editor is now a web app. The media creation community is looks at the web programming community and wondering what the hell you are talking about, and why your view is so narrow. Blender, ZBrush, Unreal Engine, Visual Studio, ProTools, Reaper, Substance Suite etc. etc. the list goes on and on. These kind of applications often have extremely heavy system requirements and are…

Visual effects artists and embedded programmers are very niche communities (former embedded SW engineer here). Probably something like 90% of people just need a browser 90% of the time. It's kind of a no brainer from a business point of view. If your app can be browser based and still functional, it should be. Of course there are drawbacks but the economics are in the browser's favor.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#65

There’s nothing wrong with the industry wanting to switch to layout engines for desktop applications. The problem is that this type of runtime environment is still fairly new. Desktop OS’s should have HTML/JS runtime built into the application layer, maybe even deeper. It’s such a dominant user functionality these days. Instead we get a bunch of headless chrome instances. There needs to be an engine that maybe isn’t…

I don't even care about the memory footprint personally. I can buy more RAM. It's that every Electron app makes up all of it's own navigation paradigms, doesn't integrate well into the OS, and always feels slow.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#66
post #55

Web still has by far the best developer experience + cross platform stability, not to mention the lowest barrier to entry. I would be really interested to see what happens with Tauri[1] as that looks like a more promising alternative to Electron. I do want to see a return to native apps but there are no worthwhile incentives to do so outside of "our customers demanded a native app." [1] https://tauri.studio/en/

> Web still has by far the best developer experience + cross platform stability, not to mention the lowest barrier to entry. I would be really interested to see what happens with Tauri[1] as that looks like a more promising alternative to Electron. Compared to what? C code I wrote in the 90s in middle school still compiles. JS code I wrote two weeks ago probably doesn't because the mountain of dependencies has shifte…

Command-line C-application is "simple". But if you want to give access to your centrally managed (and updated) app to anybody in the world who has browser and internet, it gets more complicated. It gets complicated because you have to program both the client and the server and make sure it works on multiple browsers including cell-phones.

So even though basic command-line C-apps are great in terms of maintainability they also typically do less than modern web-apps.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#67
Why would anyone use Hyper? It's not like there aren't better terminal emulators out there for each platform. Using Electron to emulate a terminal is plain insanity to me, you are trading off performance and system resources for the js hype.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#68
It is exactly the failure of Microsoft and Apple to propose any meaningful cross-platform API. Both are fighting to increase vendor lock-in - it is in their best interests that apps written on Windows don't work on macOS/iOS and the other way round. Linux/OS folks themselves are unable to solve this problem on their own and it becomes a mouse-and-cat game.

The popularity of web apps helped to reduce the problem, but it still exists. Electron is only half a measure because the technology used is inefficient resource-wise and a platform optimized for the desktop would do the job better. If someone cared enough, they would allocate the necessary resources to minimize this problem (I don't believe solving it is effectively possible because of the complexity and bloat of current web technologies).

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#69
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am wondering why mobile apps too haven't entirely been replaced by Web apps Simple equation. Efficiency of a mobile device is directly proportional to the efficiency of the runtime the apps are running on. For example Objective-C / swift has a GC-less memory model which just means we get to do more with less memory. This is how iPhone typically ship with lesser RAM than Android phones, yet do everything that Andr…

> For example Objective-C / swift has a GC-less memory model which just means we get to do more with less memory. This is how iPhone typically ship with lesser RAM than Android phones, yet do everything that Android phones are capable of surprisingly well. You forgot CPU that's light-years ahead of anything that Qualcomm or Samsung have. But, please, keep thinking that it is about Swift/Objective-C, lol.

The parent's point still stands. Memory usage is lower without the overhead of the JVM (I think that's the point they were making).

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#70
post #50

Everyone noticed. What was less obvious was that electron would grow this big and still be this bad. How is the memory usage still so inefficient?

Did you see that the top post on HN for a decent chunk of yesterday was celebrating that they were getting 200 rps? 200 rps was not something to brag about to your parents 15 years ago, but half of HN seems to have never heard of serving a static file through Nginx. I don't want to be overdramatic but it confused the hell out of me and it made me worry about the industry. How can you have all these people cargo-culti…

Frameworks are there to make development more accessible. So I can completely understand how one might trade on a framework without understanding the fundamentals.
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