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How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

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Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#41

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

pochekailov wrote: post #36

Today's medicine is focused to treat the diseases, refusing to admit that people at 70-80 years old die not from disease, but from the old age. Everybody but a few enthusiasts refuse to treat ageing instead of cancer or heart diseases. People in general refuse to treat ageing as a disease, thinking it is something natural. I would not want a couple more miserable years on earth, I want a few million years of a health…

> People in general refuse to treat ageing as a disease, thinking it is something natural.

Aging is not natural? I certainly understand why someone would not consider it a disorder.

> I want a few million years of a healthy young life.

I would avoid literal genies if I were you.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#42

Post by amatecha »

amyjess wrote: post #35

I long ago decided that if I got a terminal disease, I would refuse any treatment that would extend my quantity of life at the expense of my quality of life. I've seen what chemo does to people. No thank you. If I get cancer, I'll just self-medicate with whatever opioids I can get my hands on until either the cancer kills me or the pain gets bad enough that the opioids stop being able to do anything for it, at which…

Don't be so quick to decide this now -- consider your options at the time, if such a thing arises. It may not be so cut & dry as "terminal" and there's a huge amount of variability in how cancer diagnoses go. In the meantime, take the best care of your body you possibly can :)

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#43

Post by stubish »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #12
camkego wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far, far, far down in the blog post at section III., the author says this: > I (and the doctors in my family whom I’ve asked) am pretty much like the doctors in the article. If I get a terminal disease, I want to wring what I can out of the few months of life I have left and totally avoid any surgery, chemotherapy, amputations, ventilators, and the like. It would be a clean death. It would be okay. > My big fear, tho…

Why would that be the big fear?

In most places assisted dying laws only apply to people suffering a terminal disease. If you are suffering something non-terminal, you lack choice and will continue suffering. The best hope some people have is that loved ones let them starve to death.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#44

Post by CobrastanJorji »

pochekailov wrote: post #36

Today's medicine is focused to treat the diseases, refusing to admit that people at 70-80 years old die not from disease, but from the old age. Everybody but a few enthusiasts refuse to treat ageing instead of cancer or heart diseases. People in general refuse to treat ageing as a disease, thinking it is something natural. I would not want a couple more miserable years on earth, I want a few million years of a health…

Just yesterday there was an article on Hacker News attacking Bezos for having the pride and selfishness to attempt to cure aging: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28440348

"Be fine with dying of old age or else you're a villain" is this weird, fundamental, Christian part of our common mythos/ethics/stories. The evil villain seeks immortality. The kindly old witch or wizard or Pope dies peacefully because it is right.

Aging is bad. We might be able to fix it. There are a thousand downsides and challenges that come with a solution to old age, but that doesn't mean leaving aging in place is better.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#45

Post by Johnny555 »

adventured wrote: post #11
hirundo wrote: post #10

My mom struggled with lung cancer for two terrible years with cutting edge treatment, and died badly. My dad cared for her through that, and when his turn came five years later, he had no doubts. He refused all but palliative care and died in two months. What he saw once, a physician will see over and over ad nauseam. Having seen one of each, I'm not conflicted over which path I'd take.

Was it small cell lung cancer? edit: for the remarkably special downvoters (stay classy HN) - that's the type of lung cancer my mother died from, in about 20 months time. You generally can't surgically remove small cell lung cancer. It was particularly brutal, with endless treatment attempts that were physically grueling and minimally effective. It's a highly aggressive cancer with a very low survival rate and few go…

While I don't usually comment on downvotes, my guess is that the downvotes are because your question can come off as being insensitive. After someone tells you about the tragic death of both of his parents, maybe don't start a guessing game of what his mother died of even if your loved one died of that same disease.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#46

Post by OneEyedRobot »

What ticks me off no end is the folks who (often successfully) fight against physician assisted suicide. Dementia is the interesting test case, but I think should still be allowed.

With all the talk about 'controlling our bodies' in terms of abortion, and I can see both sides of that one, your own life is the one thing you really own. To have that control taken away is the worst kind of insult by the state.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#47

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

gerdesj wrote: post #40
spaceflunky wrote: post #8

Several of my grandparents spent way too long in ICU and hospice care and ultimately it wasn't worth it. I feel terrible about how their final days went, but other family members were adamant about 'throwing everything they could at it.' But the family members making that choice weren't footing the bill and they didn't have to lay in bed all day, so why wouldn't they try? I also feel they had a gross misunderstanding…

"But the family members making that choice weren't footing the bill" That appears to be the crux of the problem: "footing the bill". It may sound counter intuitive but I have found that when cost is removed from the equation, then better decisions may arise or at least a few extra distortions are removed. When money is directly involved then there are several potential, and in my view damaging, extra approaches that…

12% is a pretty good deal.

Many religious organisations want something similar and deliver approximately nothing in return.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#48

Post by indecisive_user »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #41
pochekailov wrote: post #36

Today's medicine is focused to treat the diseases, refusing to admit that people at 70-80 years old die not from disease, but from the old age. Everybody but a few enthusiasts refuse to treat ageing instead of cancer or heart diseases. People in general refuse to treat ageing as a disease, thinking it is something natural. I would not want a couple more miserable years on earth, I want a few million years of a health…

> People in general refuse to treat ageing as a disease, thinking it is something natural. Aging is not natural? I certainly understand why someone would not consider it a disorder. > I want a few million years of a healthy young life. I would avoid literal genies if I were you.

Aging is natural the same way heart disease and cancer are natural. Some people get unlucky and develop cancer at a young age, but we don't throw up our hands and say whelp it's just nature.

We should treat aging the same way. Some people's bodies fail them at 80, but others live to be 100+. If we develop good treatments there's no reason that everyone can't live to be 100 in relatively good health.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#49

Post by amatecha »

OneEyedRobot wrote: post #46

What ticks me off no end is the folks who (often successfully) fight against physician assisted suicide. Dementia is the interesting test case, but I think should still be allowed. With all the talk about 'controlling our bodies' in terms of abortion, and I can see both sides of that one, your own life is the one thing you really own. To have that control taken away is the worst kind of insult by the state.

Yeah, I know someone who said for basically their entire adult life "if I ever get like that, just shoot me" and meant it quite seriously. Unfortunately, they indeed spent their last few years gradually degrading in the throes of dementia. Very sad to see, and even more sad to know they would have absolutely hated being left to "rot" in such a way. The only consolation is the person hopefully didn't "know"? Who knows? :\

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#50

Post by hellbannedguy »

spaceflunky wrote: post #8

Several of my grandparents spent way too long in ICU and hospice care and ultimately it wasn't worth it. I feel terrible about how their final days went, but other family members were adamant about 'throwing everything they could at it.' But the family members making that choice weren't footing the bill and they didn't have to lay in bed all day, so why wouldn't they try? I also feel they had a gross misunderstanding…

My sister kept fooling with my father's palliative care meds? Why? She claimed it was so he could spend more time with her kids. My father thought he kids were spoiled.

What could be the other reason? Was she naieve? I do know she loved him, but it seemed he needed to do things for her love? She messed with his meds so she could more inheritance. Just American greed.

It's not like she even needed the money. She had two shoe stores in LA, and was a shoe designer.

She got all his cash. She had a lawyer on speed dial according to my brother. My mother got nothing. (We are not a litigious family for the most part.)

She spent part of the money on a Yurt in the backyard of her beautiful home, after a world trip staying in fancy hotels.

She wonders why her brothers, and mother, don't return calls.

One more thing. My father had a huge liver tumor. He had great insurance (Union Cadillac policy). Because modern doctors do not palpitate anymore, he went decade with the tumor. We all knew something didn't look right, but he was told by a doctor it was just scarring from a hernia operation. Not one doctor felt his abdomen, except interns at the hospital. (After the third different intern pushed on his stomach, I said enough. He's not a learning tool for you.)

He left the hospital with an incurable diagnosis. Many specialist looked at him.

This doctor affiliated with the hospital kept dragging my sick father in for appointments. He told him he would operate, after this sanctimonious speech about drinking.

My father was naturally elated.

The doctor called a couple of weeks later, and said he couldn't operrate.

It was all those unnessary office visits that irritated me, along with getting a guy's hope up.

(Sorry about the ramble. I once said, I didn't understand why Steve Jobs didn't use western medicine to cure his Pancreatic tumor. What I didn't know is how low the cure rate of that cancer was. I didn't know what kind of cancer (I hear their are basically two types, and one is somewhat kinda curable. The other is not.). I never should have said anything. When my day comes, I'm using that Right to Die option. I'm glad CA has that now. Oh boy, I am now depressed.)

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