20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports? • Hacker News Board

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#561

Post by mrtksn » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #549

mrtksn wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am all in for spreading the population sparsely under the sun for a month(I'll take the Greece beaches or the French Riviera). We can make the immunes ones prepare the food and bring the beer.

Well that's a large swing in the other direction, but I enjoy the hyperbole. You do realize lockdowns are the far other direction though? Do you see my point why lockdowns were bad? Allowing and encouraging people to go outside is the happy medium.

The idea is to separate people from each other for long enough for the virus to die off. Could be done in many ways. Accommodating people in small separate groups for a month under the sun has it's practicality issues but if someone can pull it off the results would be exactly the same.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#562

Post by anthony_romeo » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

sleavey wrote: post #497

anthony_romeo wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understood, though I'd point out that other insurance schemes will have similar sorts of calculations (either directly or indirectly in the form of premiums/annual limits in the US), so the specificity of the NHS isn't particularly helpful here, as it's one model among many. Also, based on my casual skimming of this article: https://www.nice.org.uk/process/pmg6/chapter/assessing-cost-... , this particular model evalu…

> I've read far too much casual acceptance of the deaths of older people on HN, as if this ~15% of the population [in the US at least] are freely expendable. I don't think most people on HN implying such things mean to say old people are freely expendable, but rather that they should not be saved at _all cost_. Our non-pharmaceutical interventions have a cost associated with them too, so we have to strike a balance t…

I agree, most people aren’t saying that (my wording was “too much”). I also suspect that the majority of people on all sides are not arguing whether or not to save lives at “all cost” —- this seems to be a partisan distortion of the actual debate that is occurring among serious people (much like the similarly egregious “granny killer” reference elsewhere in these comments).

There are real arguments and a real, valid debate here on the limits of a government’s influence upon its citizens, while also fulfilling its tacit obligation to maintain a reasonably stable society in a chaotic world, and in a form where its citizens are free to assemble other organizations with their own forms of governance and capacity to encourage actions among their own members. But the debate seems to be projected onto a shape increasing in magnitude, but decreasing in dimension, flatting nuanced arguments into more extreme, tangential versions of themselves. People end up speaking different languages, where all words contain other tacit assumptions which are unstated but differ greatly depending on the speaker/listener.

It’s hard to find a good discussion nowadays.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#563

Post by isoskeles » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

_6pvr wrote: post #548

isoskeles wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except now I’m supposed to show a digital vaccine record many places I go. Not many open source options exist for reading them either, so I’m just supposed to trust that the data (name, birth date, maybe location) isn’t being sent to some marketing analytics company somewhere. Edit: Since some HN commenters want to play disingenuous games and insert words into my mouth, I’ll clarify my specific problem is with these…

> Except now I’m supposed to show a digital vaccine record many places I go. Not many open source options exist for reading them either, so I’m just supposed to trust that the data (name, birth date, maybe location) isn’t being sent to some marketing analytics company somewhere. If you think vaccine passports are bad just wait until you hear about all phones...

Sorry bud, I can turn off my phone. I can leave my phone at home. My phone carrier doesn’t sell my location, they just give it to the police if I commit a murder.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#564

Post by JohnFen » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #535

JohnFen wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need a reason, it's your body. The reason is to help protect and care for your fellow human beings. "It's your body" only counts if what you're doing with it isn't putting unconsenting others at risk. Forgoing the vaccine without a solid medical reason is putting others at risk. By your logic, you should be able to punch anyone in the face at any time, because your fist is part of your body, and "it's you…

> "It's your body" only counts if what you're doing with it isn't putting unconsenting others at risk. Not according to pro-abortion stances. If you want to get the vaccine, it should protect you. If you can't there are therapeutics. You don't need to force others to inject mRNA shots into them. Your analogy was awful. Such a false equivalency, there's nothing even remotely the same about that example.

What's wrong with my analogy?

The point of vaccines is to help protect society at large, not so much you specifically. Failing to take reasonable steps that help keep your friends and neighbors safe is simply reprehensible.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#565

Post by _6pvr » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

isoskeles wrote: post #563

_6pvr wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except now I’m supposed to show a digital vaccine record many places I go. Not many open source options exist for reading them either, so I’m just supposed to trust that the data (name, birth date, maybe location) isn’t being sent to some marketing analytics company somewhere. If you think vaccine passports are bad just wait until you hear about all phones...

Sorry bud, I can turn off my phone. I can leave my phone at home. My phone carrier doesn’t sell my location, they just give it to the police if I commit a murder.

Sorry bud, you can avoid events that require vaccine passports. You can move to deeply conservative states that share your views.

Tell me again how it's different.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#566

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #536

ceejayoz wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-... https://www.tsa.gov/precheck https://www.clearme.com/

I have global entry & precheck (ironically, global entry is often slower than just using their app when you arrive). It's nice, for sure, but it's not pre-9/11 security. It's close, I guess, for just the traveller. But I miss the days when family could come to the gate. Maybe airports are too busy for that anyway, now, but I can dream.

> But I miss the days when family could come to the gate. Maybe airports are too busy for that anyway, now, but I can dream.

I kinda miss it too, and it's a bit of a shock seeing it happen in old movies now, but I already struggle to find seating at the gate. Even if the security concerns went away entirely in a magical world, I'd bet this restriction would stay.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#567

Post by hunterb123 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #561

hunterb123 wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's a large swing in the other direction, but I enjoy the hyperbole. You do realize lockdowns are the far other direction though? Do you see my point why lockdowns were bad? Allowing and encouraging people to go outside is the happy medium.

The idea is to separate people from each other for long enough for the virus to die off. Could be done in many ways. Accommodating people in small separate groups for a month under the sun has it's practicality issues but if someone can pull it off the results would be exactly the same.

That idea is stupid when the high density areas live in multi-family housing.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#568

Post by modzu » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

aeternum wrote: post #477

boldlybold wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how HN is so willing to agree with the absurdity of security theater at airports, yet so resistant to calling out the pandemic theater we're living every day.

It's not the same. Covid is clearly causing a significant increase in mortality. Even if you don't believe the covid-reporting numbers, you can simply look at excess deaths. It's very difficult to falsify death stats on a mass-scale especially in a country like the US.

when the towers fell, nobody got hurt? the threats are legitimate, but its fair to be critical of the response.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#569

Post by jfrankamp » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

boldlybold wrote: post #442

hunterb123 wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new thing is "think of grandma". Say delta variant enough and you can get anyone to give up anything. Post covid is like post 9/11. This is the new normal. Vaccine passports and all.

Funny how HN is so willing to agree with the absurdity of security theater at airports, yet so resistant to calling out the pandemic theater we're living every day.

Both have theater aspects and let me propose something: that's good.

When you approach airport security (theater) you wonder what their capabilities are _today_. Are they sniffing the air at large with their GCMS? Is there going to be a dog today? Its intimidating to think of it as a theoretical attacker because of its large and multifaceted apparatus, which is part of its deterrent power.

Masks are somewhat similar, they have a vanishingly small chance of actually intercepting a virus particle/droplet that was going to infect you on a case by case basis BUT they make people approach you differently. They say "stand back".

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#570

Post by 542354234235 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #476

mrtksn wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of the pandemic is a very observable and testable. The ways to combat the pandemic are also well known and tested. How a person can deny the existence of something that can test it personally?

Yeah lockdowns were super well tested and worked wonders /s No, they cratered the middle class while making the rich richer. Now they know not to lock down to destroy the economy but instead push to destroy personal freedoms.

> No, they cratered the middle class while making the rich richer.

Isn’t this economic policy, not lockdown policy? Any government could decide to pay laborers 100% of their salary to stay out of work. They could decide “essential workers” would be paid on top of their salary as compensation for the risk and danger. They could deice that corporate profit during a shutdown would go to support laborers. Lockdowns only hurt the middle class and help the rich because the government chooses to force the middle class to stay home while not forcing the rich to stop profiteering off it.