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The First Soviet in Ireland

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Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#11

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

jackpirate wrote: post #9
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

In that case I feel like there's probably so many differences it'd be hard to pin it on exactly one thing.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#12

Post by sb057 »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

I'm not quite sure that's the best equivalence. The political status quo (generally accepted by the populace) before the Russian Revolution was also extremely religiously conservative and nationalist.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#13

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

sb057 wrote: post #12
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

I'm not quite sure that's the best equivalence. The political status quo (generally accepted by the populace) before the Russian Revolution was also extremely religiously conservative and nationalist.

The Irish Free State wasn't as economically backwards as Cuba, there was no single strongman at that time for the Irish populace to hate, and there was no well organized and large communist party to be in opposition. EDIT: And after the exodus of Protestants from the south, not a lot of minority groups in the new Irish Free State either.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#14

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

dragonwriter wrote: post #10
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

> Quite the understatement here. I just think its plain wrong. See, Cuba. Leninism and its descendants are specifically adapted from Marxism for pre-capitalist states, and have only ever worked in such places, which Ireland at the time was not, despite being less well developed than, say, England.

I think we're in agreement here?

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#15

Post by [deleted] »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

[deleted]

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#16

Post by dragonwriter »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #14
dragonwriter wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quite the understatement here. I just think its plain wrong. See, Cuba. Leninism and its descendants are specifically adapted from Marxism for pre-capitalist states, and have only ever worked in such places, which Ireland at the time was not, despite being less well developed than, say, England.

I think we're in agreement here?

I’m saying that ascribing the failure of Ireland to find the USSR a confortable partner to it being “overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist” rather than “too far along in capitalist development” is error, not understatement.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#17

Post by [deleted] »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #13
sb057 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite sure that's the best equivalence. The political status quo (generally accepted by the populace) before the Russian Revolution was also extremely religiously conservative and nationalist.

The Irish Free State wasn't as economically backwards as Cuba, there was no single strongman at that time for the Irish populace to hate, and there was no well organized and large communist party to be in opposition. EDIT: And after the exodus of Protestants from the south, not a lot of minority groups in the new Irish Free State either.

[deleted]

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#18

Post by boomboomsubban »

jackpirate wrote: post #9
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries.

Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion.

Making this about religion seems forced to me. Even the article just throws that line in as a closing statement despite none of the article really discussing religion.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#19

Post by AnotherGoodName »

jackpirate wrote: post #9
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

Desperation for Cuba. Cuba had terrible relations with everyone except the Soviet Union. Ireland had good relations with everyone except the UK. In particular the US was supportive of Ireland.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#20

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #18
jackpirate wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries. Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion. Making this about religion seems forced…

I'm not sure it's purely a matter of Soviet support at the time, since you had home grown revolutions break out all over Germany and Hungary with various degrees of success. I think in the end there's just no real Marxist/Communist tradition or movement in Ireland to latch onto the moment with.
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