20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports? • Hacker News Board

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#451

Post by aceki » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

> The safety protocols have managed to protect airports and planes from further attack...

Sorry, but no. The DHS performed a study on the TSA's effectiveness[0], finding that the TSA missed concealed weapons, explosives, and other contraband 95% of the time. The reason the shoe bomber[1], underwear bomber[2], and the UA 93 hijacking[3] were unsuccessful was because of the passengers and crew on the flight. The TSA did nothing.

A TSA tactic that isn't as well known is the TSA SPOT program[4]. Basically, TSA agents stand around in the airport looking for "suspicious" activity which naturally leads to profiling (particularly for those of Middle Eastern descent). A score card from the program has been leaked[5], and with the sort of criteria on it, it would be easy to justify searching anyone at the airport.

This is speculation, but I suspect that giving passengers a false sense of security would make them less likely to notice an attempted hijacking, bombing, or whatever else. But at least they'll be more comfortable, right?

[0] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/investigation-breaches-...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_shoe_bomb_attempt

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPOT_(TSA_program)

[5] https://www.papersplease.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/s...

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#452

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #444

chrisseaton wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then how would pilots do things humans need to do, like go the restroom or eat (on prolonged flights)? With a bathroom on their side of the door, and a packed lunch.

What about relief pilots on long trips or in the event of incapacity? We could keep going I think: there are numerous downsides to maintaining an egress unreachable from the cabin and, given the ability to lock down existing doors, few superior benefits to justify it.

> What about relief pilots

Well try to use your imagination - them and their sleeping compartment would also be in there.

> or in the event of incapacity?

Etc.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#453

Post by dntrkv » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

ctrlp wrote: post #230

The obvious purpose of removing shoes at airports has long been more about security theater than safety. The authorities must be seen to be doing something to protect travelers or the industry might not survive the customer's perception of danger. But, the less obvious reasons surely include maintaining the function of the huge TSA security apparatus put in place after 9/11. The stated function of the TSA is to prote…

> Why would the administration willingly relinquish such a useful tool for managing the population?

Who is this administration?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#454

Post by mrtksn » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #396

mrtksn wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity Maybe it is about shifting the blame. If something happens outside, it's the police failure but if something happens inside it is venue management failure. Anyway, I completely agree that we have given up way too much in the name of security. If it's not the terrorist, then it is "think of the children" scare and we are abou…

The new thing is "think of grandma". Say delta variant enough and you can get anyone to give up anything. Post covid is like post 9/11. This is the new normal. Vaccine passports and all.

I got vaccinated to protect myself, not fan of natural immunity through suffocating. 2 days pain in the shoulder, 1 day of a mild fever and affectionate feelings towards Bill Gates is a great bargain.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#455

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #263

titzer wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie. I don't see the same parallels. After 9/11 the US was extraordinarily united and committed to vengeance. Thousands joined the military. After COVID we're more divided than ever and people are not even willing put a piece of cloth on their faces. Widespread denial and resistance to anything inconveniencing them. Whereas after 9/11 people were willing…

Putting on cloth masks doesn't produce a statistically significant decrease in symptomatic infection rates. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-mask...

Wow, what a way to misrepresent that study.

The reduction in infection rates wasn't large enough to qualify as statistically significant. That just means that the reduction that they saw from cloth masks could have been due to chance.

Edit: Since the size of the cloth mask group is half the size of the surgical masl group, the effect in the cloth mask group would have to be comperatively larger than the effect on the surgical masl group to qualify as significant.

Somewhow you take that as evidence cloth masks don't work?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#456

Post by belkinpower » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

stoolpigeon wrote: post #18

The US is the only place I think I've had to remove shoes for flight security in years. But in Europe taking off a belt is often required while in the US it is not. In Budapest they stopped having us remove laptops from bags a bit ago. My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way.

> My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way.

For as much as I complain about security theater and think they’re mostly useless, this is genuinely my biggest issue with TSA. It’s wildly inconsistent, there’s insufficient signage, and they act like you’re an idiot if you haven’t correctly guessed what today’s rules are.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#457

Post by 0xffff2 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #242

0xffff2 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious where you get the idea that "Not every soldier is taught hand-to-hand combat". It's certainly not true in the US Army.

The US army is only one of the US armed forces. The US is only one of many countries. Many train soldiers very differently than the US does.

Granted, but the US Army is the only one I have direct experience with. Hand to hand combat seems like such a basic component of combat training that I would be shocked to hear that it is completely absent from any armed forces boot camp.

You didn't answer the question by the way.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#458

Post by ewagsjr » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

GDC7 wrote: post #60

And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. Also the 10000+ souls at the departing and arrival train station also don't matter. Not to mention the 4000 souls aboard cruise ships. It ain't about safety from ill-intentioned people...it's about protecting the POTUS from having to give the order to open fire on an hijacked civilian plane. That's th…

So I am not saying you are wrong, but there is the extra circumstance of not being able to fly a train into skyscrapers.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#459

Post by ctrlp » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

dntrkv wrote: post #453

ctrlp wrote: post #230

The obvious purpose of removing shoes at airports has long been more about security theater than safety. The authorities must be seen to be doing something to protect travelers or the industry might not survive the customer's perception of danger. But, the less obvious reasons surely include maintaining the function of the huge TSA security apparatus put in place after 9/11. The stated function of the TSA is to prote…

> Why would the administration willingly relinquish such a useful tool for managing the population? Who is this administration?

The State

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#460

Post by C19is20 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #97

iso1210 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TK1476 in 2006. Flying from an EU country to Turkey on a major airline. "Italian Interior Minister Giuliano Amato reported that the hijacker slipped into the cockpit with a package which could have been a bomb when flight attendants opened the cockpit door, and the pilots acted according to the international rules in the matter and did what the hijacker wanted."

Great, so you found 1 case in the last 20 years where some idiot opened the cockpit door. Congratulations. This changes nothing.

Changes the power of the original argument/ statement for me.