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20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

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Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not wearing a seat belt was also not a problem pre-1984.

Tell me about it. I got to lay on top of the families suitcases in the back of the station wagon on road trips. It’s so much easier to sleep like that.

Yes, until you die in an accident that you could have survived with a seat belt.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#402
post #60

And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. Also the 10000+ souls at the departing and arrival train station also don't matter. Not to mention the 4000 souls aboard cruise ships. It ain't about safety from ill-intentioned people...it's about protecting the POTUS from having to give the order to open fire on an hijacked civilian plane. That's th…

Thank god. If I can get a train to go from A to B, I usually take the train. You can arrive at the train station 5 minutes before departure and make it to the train. It's just an overall more comfy experience, mostly thanks to the seamless process of getting on it, not having to worry about the water bottle in your backpack and arriving almost directly in the city center with just a few minutes to get off the train a…

> You can't hijack a train or a boat and make it crash wherever you want

No, but I am astounded by how you are writing off the 300 people on a train and the 4000 on a ship.

You'd be effectively trapped aboard with hijackers who'd not hesitate to off everybody .

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#403
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from the interview, the government already has all the background check data in their databases already. It’s not like you’re applying for a security clearance where agents go around your friends, family and neighbors digging up undocumented dirt.

Do you know for a fact that your background screening does not now or will not ever include calling out to a social media extremist detection service? I'm not so confident.

The TSA gets all the info they'd need to do that when you buy a ticket. Precheck or not.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#404
Honestly, I am ok with bullshit TSA because it will help make long distance train travel more attractive in the US.

Relatedly, I want someone to write a dark comedy set like 20 years hence where a bunch of airline execs, worried about their shrinking industry and some shiny new rail, band together to pay off some terrorist to blow up a moving train so train stations gets TSA security theater.

Without the movie, I worry due to some stupid accident the rail TSA might actually happen!

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#405
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quibble: terrorism is using dramatic violence to achieve political ends. It just so happens that the victimized society often wants to increase security. The US had at least 3 major responses to 9/11: 1) seek revenge (invade Afghanistan, kill Bin Laden), 2) armor up (Dept. of Homeland Security), and 3) unify under nationalism (flags everywhere). It's pretty easy to imagine a timeline where some or none of those ha…

In the case of 9/11 the most likely motive was retaliation. If you could ask the terrorists, they would tell you that America terrorized them first (I'm not saying that's accurate).

There's nothing hypothetical about it. I'm actually baffled at the fact that people here infer random motivations when Usama bin Laden gave interviews as far back as the early 90s and held multiple speeches after 9/11.

The stated goal of the attacks was to show Americans that their continuous war and support for secular dictators in the Muslim world would come with high cost, and to force the American government to retreat from the Middle East.

This of course backfired spectacularly. Revenge is certainly a primary motivation, too, but I really don't think there is much room on the interpretation for the initial motivation because Al Qaeda was always very open and clear about it.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#406
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real threat is lone wolf random attacks on the general public like the DC sniper. That's a very low-cost high-impact attack that paralyzed an entire metro region for nearly a month. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks Considering how many crazy, extremely radicalized people are out there, I'm surprised attacks like this aren't much more common.

> Considering how many crazy, extremely radicalized people are out there, I'm surprised attacks like this aren't much more common. The media overreports on how radical these people are. There's very few. However if COVID restrictions keep pushing forward I think that may change. Many people are at their breaking point right now. I'm fully vaccinated and I've already decided I'm never going to wear a mask again and av…

Even vaccinated folks can have the virus colonizing their airways, completely symptom free. Intentionally performing acts that could lead to the sickness or death of those around you seems pretty anti-social to me.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#407
I used to think security theater (like taking off your shoes) was the dumbest thing ever. Then I realized that Terrorism is "Insecurity theater". Its designed to make you feel unsafe. It is statistically not at likely to hurt you, and the people who do it are rare, you but its designed to scare you in to thinking you are under some massive threat by an army of people who can and do strike at anytime. Its psychological warfare. So how do you fight against that? You make people go through security theater to make them think they are safe! We beat the terrorists, not when there are no terror incidents, but when no one is afraid of them. Fear is the enemy. If forcing people to taking off their shoes makes some people feel safe flying, then it is an effective anti terrorist measure.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#408
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think masks are petty symbolism? I think that kind of trolling just raises the temperature here, which I'd like to avoid, so no, please, do not go on.

Do we think security theater is symbolism? It has had some positives over the years just as masks have a huge positive health impact during COVID but on both sides of the issue, people treat it as a signal as well, no?

Someone arguing in favor of security theater on HN. Brave.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#410

The US is the only place I think I've had to remove shoes for flight security in years. But in Europe taking off a belt is often required while in the US it is not. In Budapest they stopped having us remove laptops from bags a bit ago. My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way.

There is an impatience mismatch between the average traveler and airport security.

Flying out of Philly Airport, the TSA yelled at everyone to take off their belt and shoes, shaking their head in disbelief at people that didn't know the rules, wasting everyone's time.

A few months later, same airport, new rules, now the TSA yelled at people taking off their belts and shoes because that's not a rule, shaking their head at people wasting everyone's time.

When you work at any job you tend toward assuming all people are as knowledgeable about the 'obvious' things, it is a tough skill to remain empathetic. I fly maybe 3 times a year. A security agent will process a few thousand people a shift. We are each bringing a different patience threshold to the interaction.

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