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20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

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Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#231

Post by spoonjim »

duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

That security isn’t necessarily to stop terrorism. It’s also to stop people from bringing in weapons and then using them in drunken brawls.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#232

Post by ben_w »

trident5000 wrote: post #121
gilrain wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or because every actual study has shown this line of reasoning isn’t backed by reality.

Practically every law enforcement agency is going to disagree with you on that. Id like to see these studies if you dont mind.

You can name even one law enforcement agency that wants vigilante firearm violence? Because that is literally what it means to desire the general public act as armed first responders.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#233

Post by fouc »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #57
stoolpigeon wrote: post #18

The US is the only place I think I've had to remove shoes for flight security in years. But in Europe taking off a belt is often required while in the US it is not. In Budapest they stopped having us remove laptops from bags a bit ago. My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way.

"My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way." It can differ from airport to airport. I traveled from Ottawa to Toronto often enough for it to be mindless but differences between two national airports in same province of same country on same airline still caught me if I went too…

I'd stick with the more conservative measure, taking the tablet out all the time, even if it might not have been required. Also I wouldn't bother verbally responding if they ask me to do something, I'd just do it and keep my lips sealed.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#234

Post by aww_dang »

dzdt wrote: post #207
nemo44x wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a supply issue from what I've read. Most bomb sniffing dogs are sourced from overseas and there's a high demand for them globally. There simply aren't enough dogs that are capable. Even from a litter, there's a chance none of them will qualify after training, much like legit service dogs. We also use a lot of dogs to sniff for drugs.

For drug-sniffing dogs, generally all that is needed or expected is the dog will indicate where and when its handler wants an indication. For bomb-sniffing dogs you are hoping for a more precise outcome which is much harder to train for and achieve. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/02/05/supreme-c...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651

>The ADE 651 is a fake bomb detector[1] produced by the British company Advanced Tactical Security & Communications Ltd (ATSC). Its manufacturer claimed it could detect bombs, guns, ammunition, and more from kilometers away. However, it was a scam, and the device was little more than a dowsing rod. The device was sold for up to US$60,000 each, despite costing almost nothing to produce.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#235

Post by titzer »

bedhead wrote: post #203
titzer wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie. I don't see the same parallels. After 9/11 the US was extraordinarily united and committed to vengeance. Thousands joined the military. After COVID we're more divided than ever and people are not even willing put a piece of cloth on their faces. Widespread denial and resistance to anything inconveniencing them. Whereas after 9/11 people were willing…

Mass loss of life. Novel way in which people died. People dying randomly (hard to avoid). General hysteria. Paranoia over a minority group. Moral outrage against anyone not falling inline politically. Overreaching government plans to keep people safe. Petty symbolism (freedom fries/masks) to sort the moral from the immoral. Should I go on?

You think masks are petty symbolism? I think that kind of trolling just raises the temperature here, which I'd like to avoid, so no, please, do not go on.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#237

Post by jdavis703 »

baktubi wrote: post #166
jkestner wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already there. The Oklahoma City bombing is only the most notable, but domestic terrorists coming from the military is growing. https://www.csis.org/analysis/military-police-and-rise-terro...

“ Most investigations apparently involved veterans, some of whom had unfavorable discharge records.3” Honestly, you’re going to have bad apples no matter what. But what about the rest of the citizens? How can they respond to disaster scenarios without training? Domestic terrorism is the same thing as abroad terrorism, except one uses patriotism as an ideology, the other uses religion.

People make a way. When the Loma Prieta earthquake knocked down highways, neighborhood workers and residents rescued people from the collapsed structures. The same happened in NYC on 9/11 when the WTC fell.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#238

Post by monkeynotes »

refactor_master wrote: post #175
monkeynotes wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me this sounds like a risk for service cart/flight attendant/exiting pilot being overcome and entry gained to the cockpit. Even better a hijacker knows exactly when the opportunity arises as the service cart will be moved into place indicating the dance is about to start. Furthermore, what's to stop suicide pilot murdering co-pilot behind a locked door?

> Furthermore, what's to stop suicide pilot murdering co-pilot behind a locked door? What’s to stop anyone from murdering anyone anywhere?

My point is that if a pilot is determined to murder suicide a whole plane because he's suicidal there is little you can do realistically.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#239

Post by lotsofpulp »

duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

> What are we doing this for?

No longer high on the list of priorities for politicians, so insufficient benefit for risking being seen as the politician that wants to make life easier (regardless that this is not true) for terrorists.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#240

Post by conductr »

leecarraher wrote: post #13
88 wrote: post #5

I thought the removal of shoes was a response to the Shoe Bomber plot, not 9/11? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid

Correct, but I think the general escalation of security in airports which caught Richard Reid, was a direct response to 9/11 . Either Way, it is still mainly security theater to make passengers less apprehensive about taking what is still the safest mode of travel per passenger mile( there might be other metrics, but this is the only one I've read recently).

> mainly security theater

I have often noticed policies are different at each airport. Combined with the shoe/belt/imaging policies, I believe it's meant to be a form of confusion. As in, any given security policy/process can be studied for weaknesses. When the policies are differing/changing there is a component of surprise the attacker has to account for that can be difficult to game. However, this is all in my head as I try to understand my observations. Hoping it's all being done intentionally, when chances are it's just local level enforcement picking and choosing what ever they want to enforce any given day depending on who is in charge on that shift.

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