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20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

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Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldnt that also equip many attackers with better skills?

You basically just need to make the odds of encountering a trained responder higher than a lone wolf. FWIW, this would be a much better approach to the “well regulated militia” part of the second amendment than what the US has today. Edit to fix bad quote of “well regulated militia.”

Isn't it actually "well regulated"?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#202
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering how many crazy, extremely radicalized people are out there, I'm surprised attacks like this aren't much more common. Maybe because your base assumption is wrong: there are not many of them.

There are plenty of radicalized people, but valuing your life so little that you'll risk it for the cause and having a cause that wants you to kill random civilians is not very common.

Incels, school shooters, bechildrened fathers, it happens a few times per year in most countries. Given they are ready to die, it’s surprising to me when they kill 1 instead of 100 people.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#203
post #157
post #40

Things like this are why I'm so cynical about COVID stuff. We have an unconditional commitment to stupid reactive policies that elevate symbolism far above sensibility, and boy does it have a lot of inertia. The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie.

> The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie. I don't see the same parallels. After 9/11 the US was extraordinarily united and committed to vengeance. Thousands joined the military. After COVID we're more divided than ever and people are not even willing put a piece of cloth on their faces. Widespread denial and resistance to anything inconveniencing them. Whereas after 9/11 people were willing…

Mass loss of life. Novel way in which people died. People dying randomly (hard to avoid). General hysteria. Paranoia over a minority group. Moral outrage against anyone not falling inline politically. Overreaching government plans to keep people safe. Petty symbolism (freedom fries/masks) to sort the moral from the immoral.

Should I go on?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#204
post #40

Things like this are why I'm so cynical about COVID stuff. We have an unconditional commitment to stupid reactive policies that elevate symbolism far above sensibility, and boy does it have a lot of inertia. The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie.

There is a mountain worth of difference. The policies enacted for COVID have a very specific target, has been shown to work repeatedly, and deviating from them caused decline in the KPI its trying to maintain. Its nothing like TSA.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#205
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the body scanners, but I don't know if they can detect anything weird in shoes. That said, how many shoe bombs have they intercepted? That should be a pretty good indication about whether it's still necessary, and I like to think the policy change (or lack thereof) is data-driven.

I've never liked the argument "how many shoe bombs have been intercepted?" or "how many terrorists have been stopped?" when it comes to TSA-style security. The presence of the security isn't necessarily meant to find people in the act of carrying out terrorism , it's mean to deter it in the first place since you will be found out (well, in theory anyway...). It's impossible to quantify how many plots have been deterr…

Isn't hard to plenty of articles like these, so it certainly seems like they'd be ineffective at preventing an actual terrorist:

According to officials briefed on the results of a recent Homeland Security Inspector General’s report, TSA agents failed 67 out of 70 tests, with Red Team members repeatedly able to get potential weapons through checkpoints.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/exclusive-undercover-dhs-tests-fin...

“In most cases, they succeeded in getting the banned items through. 17 out of 18 tries by the undercover federal agents saw explosive materials, fake weapons or drugs pass through TSA screening undetected,” KMSP reported, citing unnamed sources familiar with the operation.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/6/tsa-failed-det...

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#206
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real threat is lone wolf random attacks on the general public like the DC sniper. That's a very low-cost high-impact attack that paralyzed an entire metro region for nearly a month. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks Considering how many crazy, extremely radicalized people are out there, I'm surprised attacks like this aren't much more common.

Perhaps people are less truly radicalized, and substantially more negotiable, than we've been lead to believe. It certainly benefits both the media and politicians to sell us a story that there are an extreme number of radicalized people out there. I've certainly never met any neo-Nazis. Not to say they don't exist, but if they are truly as common as I've been told, I think I'd have encountered some.

This is such a terrible argument. 1. You very well might never know you have. People with extreme views don't advertise them everywhere and at all times. 2. There is plenty of video evidence of literal crowds of such people in various places and they quite obviously exist in large enough numbers to draw these crowds (no group has anywhere near 100% participation in events). Your anecdotal experience is irrelevant.

Now you might think the threshold for an "extreme number" is much higher than drawing this type of crowd, but there are enough people for whom that is a big deal, that it makes for compelling news that gets views. Way too many for me, that's for sure.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#207
post #52

I try not to fly and this is one of the major reasons I find flying so annoying. I've been through airports where they just use bomb sniffing dogs, why can't that be the norm?

It's a supply issue from what I've read. Most bomb sniffing dogs are sourced from overseas and there's a high demand for them globally. There simply aren't enough dogs that are capable. Even from a litter, there's a chance none of them will qualify after training, much like legit service dogs. We also use a lot of dogs to sniff for drugs.

For drug-sniffing dogs, generally all that is needed or expected is the dog will indicate where and when its handler wants an indication. For bomb-sniffing dogs you are hoping for a more precise outcome which is much harder to train for and achieve.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/02/05/supreme-c...

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#208
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go to a local school board meeting on masks and be disabused of this notion fairly quickly. edit: Votes on this one have been a wild ride.

Are you suggesting that people who disagree on masking children are radicals comparable to jihadi terrorists?

I initially thought he was claiming the inverse, that mask proponents were extremists. From the perspective of 2019, that wouldn't be an unreasonable assumption, but here we are. Today people are advocating using the force of the state, in other words violence against those who do not share their views on mask mandates.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#209
post #40

Things like this are why I'm so cynical about COVID stuff. We have an unconditional commitment to stupid reactive policies that elevate symbolism far above sensibility, and boy does it have a lot of inertia. The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie.

It’s not cynical when looking at the incentives. Once a rule is in place for “safety” reasons the political cost to remove is really high (what if something bad happens?). Politicians won’t touch it. That’s why I think exceptional measures should expire automatically (on a date or when a hard condition is met)

I agree fully re: expiration dates. IIRC the patriot act had an expiration date and it took nearly two decades for it to actually expire because it kept being reauthorized. It finally did expire last year and was not reauthorized and I suspect that is because we've actually already slipped far enough down the slope to no longer need that particular set of rules.

So I support the expiration date idea. I just wish there was a way to implement it such that it actually had the desired effect.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#210
We have to wear a sign of obedience on our faces anywhere we go for more than a year now. In some countries periodic anal swabs are mandatory and even diplomatic status is not an excuse to skip one. Not taking about mandatory periodic injection of an unknown substance combined with regular mandatory DNA material harvesting.

Are we still concerned with shoes at airports?

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