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The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

commoncog.com

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Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#31

Post by em-bee »

borroka wrote: post #22
rsync wrote: post #9

One word: play. I didn’t go to Unix school or do practice reps of building networks. I stayed up late nights building weird and sometimes nefarious projects. Similarly, I have mediocre results when my schedule only allows BJJ classes but markedly better results when I can just go “play” Jiu jitsu with others. Just go get reps doing something you love, in an experimental and playful manner.

The standard BJJ classes (warm-up, technique of the day, sparring) are pedagogical black holes (BB here), anything else decent enough is better.

how is sparring any different from just "playing" jiu-jitsu?

the wikipedia page on BJJ ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu ) claims that live drilling ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness ) plays a major role in training and development, which suggests that it should be part of BJJ classes, but the way it is described, suggests that it is more similar to "playing", which, apparently is not part of BJJ classes. so how is sparring done that it doesn't have the desired effect?

i also wonder why other sports (in particular other martial arts) should be any different.

ps: i take it that BB means Black Belt?

Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#32

Post by vkk8 »

koeng wrote: post #2

“ First, it seems improbable that in the narrow area of expert performance we find that practice dominates, whereas in everything else, we find that genetic factors have an equally large (if not greater) effect on outcomes. (This latter bit — that genes matter in determining IQ, mental health, personality traits, aptitude, and others — is so well replicated so as to not be in serious dispute any longer.” Now that’s a…

I've had similar thoughts on this.

In sports, most people accept that genetics plays a huge role (if you want to play in the NBA, having tall genes certainly helps a lot). Why wouldn't they also matter for intellectual pursuits? If the effect of genes is something we can easily see with our own eyes - arm length, bone width, etc. - we have no difficulty accepting it, but if we can't see it - certain type of brain structure, certain hormone profile that favours some activites over others, etc. - we want to believe that genes don't play a role.

Besides, the role of the genes can also be a second order effect. The book Sports Gene by David Eppstein tells a story of sled racing dogs that were bred for motivation to run (apparently it can be bred). Naturally dogs that like running also want to train more and become better at it. Could it be that the motivation to do things like mathematics or programming are also heavily influenced by genetics?

Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#33

Post by Arisaka1 »

shadowsun7 wrote: post #15
TameAntelope wrote: post #7

I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with this article - it seems written as a hit piece on Deliberate Practice, but doesn't live up to that by more or less pointing at various works and saying, "That seems crazy!" Anders Ericsson passed away in 2020, but fortunately in 2019 he wrote a comprehensive article describing his journey through the discovery of deliberate practice and how it evolved over the ensuing…

I think you'll be surprised to learn that most applied expertise research in the years since DP was first discovered has focused on training methods that do not depend on mature pedagogical development, which DP does. This is the primary point that I make, and realising this was what led me down the alternative path in the year since I wrote this post. In sum: DP simply has too high a bar to clear. Want to do DP? Wel…

As a self-taught web developer switching careers in his 30's I was interested to learn more about deliberate practice. I remember my extreme disappointment when I found out that it's only applicable to well-developed fields where there are established pedagogical practices. It's not that the common-given advice "just build stuff" isn't true, I just wanted to take the extra mile and choose projects in order to maximize my personal growth.

Finding someone who went through the extra mile to research for ways to apply DP in the relatively unexplored territory is such a breath of fresh air so, thank you for this!

Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#34

Post by HPsquared »

I always had an inkling that the "talent is overrated" argument (that a certain amount deliberate practice is sufficient to achieve mastery) is something of a tautology: only those talented individuals, who are capable of such a rigorous training routine, will achieve mastery.

Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#35

Post by matwood »

em-bee wrote: post #31
borroka wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard BJJ classes (warm-up, technique of the day, sparring) are pedagogical black holes (BB here), anything else decent enough is better.

how is sparring any different from just "playing" jiu-jitsu? the wikipedia page on BJJ ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu ) claims that live drilling ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness ) plays a major role in training and development, which suggests that it should be part of BJJ classes, but the way it is described, suggests that it is more similar to "playing", which, apparently is not part o…

I've only been training a little over 3 years (definitely not a BB), but maybe the BB meant there are many different types of sparring. Many (most?) schools warm up, show a move, (maybe drill it), then let everyone spar away. The problem is when sparring the person with more skill will severely limit the positions the less skilled person sees. If the less skilled person happens to be very strong or athletic they can in turn limit the positions the more skilled person sees just by holding on, which turns the sparring into very limited training value.

For me, what has helped really learn is drilling. I know lots of BJJ people hate it, but I like winning and drilling works. Even those who hate drilling will admit it.

Positional sparring. Start in some position and work from there. I purposely let less skilled people start in advantageous positions so they get to work from a dominant position (where most submissions come from), and I get work escaping from bad spots.

Finally, flow rolling, which at higher training levels doesn't look that different from sparring. But, it's sparring where both sides give and get so that each sees many positions. At my level we also move much slower. Think about how hard it would be for someone to learn Chess if all they played was bullet chess? You need that bit of time so that your mind can start to build patterns, and then speed up.

I'm fortunate that I lucked into a school that teaches a bit differently.

EDIT

I should add that free for all sparring still happens, it's just not the focus of every class. Open mat days and end of class is often when people go more free for all.

Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#36

Post by necovek »

skohan wrote: post #13
shadowsun7 wrote: post #11

If you want alternatives to DP that work much better, it might be worth it to take a look at: 1. The Tacit Knowledge Series (which argues that methods from Naturalistic Decision Making are more useful when you are in a skill domain with no good pedagogical development) https://commoncog.com/blog/the-tacit-knowledge-series/ 2. Accelerated Expertise — which covers methods from the military to accelerate expertise acqui…

Not to bring politics into a HN discussion, but based on their recent outcome in Afghanistan, I'm not sure if the US military is an organization I would currently turn to for insight.

Military itself should seldom be judged by the decisions of the government. The entire mission in Afghanistan has long stopped being military oriented, and military was present to preserve some semblance of US control.

One could argue that there is sufficient proof now that US application of military in attempting to "democratize" nations has so far failed, but that should not come as a surprise since military is, by definition, not "democratic". Democracies deploy military exclusively to preserve peace (by discouraging invasion, for instance). This is still not a slight against US military, but against US foreign policy instead. Whether that makes it a net win in other (economic, geopolitical) measures for USA is another matter altogether.

As such, I do not think you should discount US military as a top-notch organization with a lot of know-how in building up expertise.

Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#37

Post by closed »

> What I’m willing to bet, however, is that you’ve heard of deliberate practice in the context of Malcolm Gladwell’s ‘10,000 hour rule’ — the mistaken notion that 10,000 hours of practice would turn anyone, at any age, for any skill, into a master practitioner.

Ericsson spent a lot of time and page space trying to distance himself from this "rule", but it's clear from his writing that he introduced it.

See his 2007 HBR article (which lists it as a necessary condition):

> By now it will be clear that it takes time to become an expert. Our research shows that even the most gifted performers need a minimum of ten years (or 10,000 hours) of intense training before they win international competitions.

It's a confusing enough situation that Macnamara et al review the many places he discusses 10k hours (or 10 years) in their book chapter The Deliberate Practice View.

Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#38

Post by elbows »

Pamar wrote: post #24
borroka wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard BJJ classes (warm-up, technique of the day, sparring) are pedagogical black holes (BB here), anything else decent enough is better.

Can you provide some suggestions on improving (or just pointing out what makes these pedagogical black holes)? I am a MA practitioner myself (Aikido, 32 years and counting) and while I am always interested in the pedagogical aspect even if I rarely held a lesson myself. (And yes, I know that BJJ is very different from Aikido, but at the end of the day, I see lots of other arts - including Karate, Judo... Aikido etc.…

A lot of martial arts training is focused on practicing techniques in isolation and developing "perfect" form (punches/kicks in the air, doing the same throw repeatedly against a cooperative partner). The problem is that any technique you want to apply against an opponent in a competition (or self-defense situation) also has a significant tactical/decision-making component, which is not really trained by that approach. You have to learn when to do a technique, how to set it up, and how to adapt the movement to your specific opponent. You can learn the tactical skills in sparring but it's difficult because there's so much going on.

So when you try to jump from isolated technique practice to sparring, there's a disconnect because you haven't built the tactical skills. Even worse, the movement you practiced in isolation may be different from what works in sparring, so all that isolated practice can actually be counterproductive. You can see this pretty clearly in combat sports like kendo and fencing which have a strong component of tradition -- the movements of high-level competitors tend to be very different from the "correct" form taught in class.

I'm not sure how much this would apply to aikido, which as I understand it is not particularly focused on competitive or self-defense applications.

If you're interested in pedagogy for martial arts (or sports in general), I highly recommend "Development of Technique and Tactical Skill" by Luis Preto and Spyridon Katisgiannis.

"Principles-Based Instruction for Self Defense" by Rory Miller is also pretty good, if a bit rambling.

Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#39

Post by glangdale »

em-bee wrote: post #31
borroka wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard BJJ classes (warm-up, technique of the day, sparring) are pedagogical black holes (BB here), anything else decent enough is better.

how is sparring any different from just "playing" jiu-jitsu? the wikipedia page on BJJ ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu ) claims that live drilling ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness ) plays a major role in training and development, which suggests that it should be part of BJJ classes, but the way it is described, suggests that it is more similar to "playing", which, apparently is not part o…

Not a black belt myself, but agree with GP. Sparring frequently tends to be "people trying to murder each other on the mats in pursuit of their egos". There's a level of dynamism in good sparring that can immediately get shut down if one or both practioners are overly motivated by "winning". You need to take a lot of risks to learn in practice even if it means getting clowned by someone who you could beat if you had to, but you do see people sticking to conservative games in order to dominate. Which often doesn't teach them (as they aren't learning new aspects) but it also doesn't teach their opponent (as it's very hard to learn new stuff when trapped in someone's well-rehearsed "A Game").

The advantage of positional sparring (i.e. go from one position and stop when someone gets out of it to some outcome - not necessarily a tap) is that everyone gets to sharpen a single position. The ego motivation isn't as strong there as it is with full sparring.

Re: The Problems with Deliberate Practice (2020)

#40

Post by teorema »

HPsquared wrote: post #34

I always had an inkling that the "talent is overrated" argument (that a certain amount deliberate practice is sufficient to achieve mastery) is something of a tautology: only those talented individuals, who are capable of such a rigorous training routine, will achieve mastery.

On the other hand, critics of natural talent explanations often point out that too is tautological: someone is talented if they're successful and vice versa. Clearly there aren't proteins for violin bow control, so something happens in between.
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