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The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

blog.coinbase.com

191–200 of 454 posts

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#191
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and this line pretty much sums it up: > Customers won’t be “investing” in the program, but rather lending the USDC they hold on Coinbase’s platform in connection with their existing relationship. "Give me money for a fixed period of time and I'll pay a guaranteed return on your principal. No, it's not an "investment", you're just lending it in connection with our existing relationship!"

Excuse my ignorance but how is that any different from "interest"?

As in, the interest you might earn on a savings account?

The rule is basically: "If you're giving someone else money in the hope of getting more money back later, it's a security UNLESS it fits into a list of exceptions, or if it meets the criteria to be added as a new exception."

So a savings account would absolutely be a security, unless it fits into one of the recognised exceptions. One of those exceptions is the existence of an "alternative regulatory regime", ie, there being some other framework, other than security laws, to protect people.

For a savings account, the fact that banks are federally regulated, and that deposits are federally insured via FDIC, means they don't count. But Coinbase's Lend program does not seem to be subject to any other regulatory regimes, so...

In fact, the very fact that they went to the SEC to tell them what they were up to and check if it was legal is a bit of a red flag. The SEC enforces security laws. The fact Coinbase couldn't go to the Federal Department of Enforcing Crypto Lending Regulations is a sign that this falls under security laws, because there is no stand alone Crypto Lending Regulations to enforce.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#192
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lending the bank your money with an 0.04% interest rate. Is that a security? No. Banks are regulated separately and more strenuously than securities firms, much less issuers. If Coinbase wants to offer Lend as an FDIC-insured deposit account, I’m sure the SEC would be fine with it. But Coinbase can’t do that because it doesn’t follow the rules banks must follow.

But is Lend a security ? As far as I can tell, there's no contract for capital flows that you can trade with others. Lend isn't fungible, the USDC is.

As I understand it, there doesn’t need to be a liquid market for something in order for it to be a security; just an investment of capital with the expectation of return through the efforts of a third party (the Howey test)

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#193
post #148

I have to say I'm getting tired of all these 'new economy' (is it still new?) companies, trying to get around established regulations which usually have been put into place for a good reason and using PR to create a narrative/pressure to say that regulations/regulators are hindering innovation and are not acting in good faith. Instead it seems to usually be the case that they are trying to do exactly what the regulat…

Interesting how the folks so passionate about open-source are the most hostile to open finance

That's because the two things are not related or even comparable.

I do use OSS and I want open banking.

What I do not want is that lots of people lose money due to fraud or high volatility.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#194

I actually initially wanted to be on Coinbase’s side here, but after a quick google of “Howey test” and reading even just the introduction on Wikipedia, I cannot imagine how they don’t see the SEC’s reasoning about Lend wrt Howey. If you want to argue that Howey does not apply or fight the decision/lawsuit, then fine. But feigning ignorance of something a (non-legal expert) programmer can connect the dots of instantl…

Agreed, and this line pretty much sums it up: > Customers won’t be “investing” in the program, but rather lending the USDC they hold on Coinbase’s platform in connection with their existing relationship. "Give me money for a fixed period of time and I'll pay a guaranteed return on your principal. No, it's not an "investment", you're just lending it in connection with our existing relationship!"

I'm not an expert here but I read their argument as they don't expect this lending to be regulated as "investment" because the capital is not in theory at risk. So it's more like a savings account than an investment account.

That's the impression I got from the article, but reading other comments in the thread it doesn't seem like that's an at all relevant definition of the term!

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#195

I actually initially wanted to be on Coinbase’s side here, but after a quick google of “Howey test” and reading even just the introduction on Wikipedia, I cannot imagine how they don’t see the SEC’s reasoning about Lend wrt Howey. If you want to argue that Howey does not apply or fight the decision/lawsuit, then fine. But feigning ignorance of something a (non-legal expert) programmer can connect the dots of instantl…

If that were the case, then the SEC should say so. The fact that they are unwilling to suggests that there is more to it than you think.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot imagine how they don’t see the SEC’s reasoning about Lend wrt Howey. If you want to argue that Howey does not apply or fight the decision/lawsuit, then fine. But feigning ignorance of something a (non-legal expert) programmer can connect the dots of instantly just makes me feel like they’re playing a PR game. Grewal was a federal (magistrate) judge in SF before he quit to go work at Facebook. Everyone I kn…

You misunderstand the legal field if you think a lawyer should be given the benefit of the doubt when arguing on behlf of a client. Their job is to use the most persuasive propaganda they can get away with.

In this context, his job is to assess the legality of it before they create the product. Companies don't generally want to invest in building something they aren't legally allowed to market.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#197

...How childish is for someone in an executive position to start whining on Medium in the name of the company about something as serious as legal issues? Did they start hiring 12 year olds after the recent mass exodus?

It's not childish. It can easily be a strategy to convince (retail) investors and users that Coinbase is in the right thus they shouldn't worry about this going too bad for them.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and this line pretty much sums it up: > Customers won’t be “investing” in the program, but rather lending the USDC they hold on Coinbase’s platform in connection with their existing relationship. "Give me money for a fixed period of time and I'll pay a guaranteed return on your principal. No, it's not an "investment", you're just lending it in connection with our existing relationship!"

I'm not an expert here but I read their argument as they don't expect this lending to be regulated as "investment" because the capital is not in theory at risk. So it's more like a savings account than an investment account. That's the impression I got from the article, but reading other comments in the thread it doesn't seem like that's an at all relevant definition of the term!

I don’t understand how you can make a profit larger than the risk-free rate of return without at least some risk; i.e. any risk free profit should be arbitraged away. If Coinbase has truly found risk-free profit it would be more profitable to sell it as an investment to some hedge fund, not give away free returns to retail.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#199
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lending the bank your money with an 0.04% interest rate. Is that a security? No. Banks are regulated separately and more strenuously than securities firms, much less issuers. If Coinbase wants to offer Lend as an FDIC-insured deposit account, I’m sure the SEC would be fine with it. But Coinbase can’t do that because it doesn’t follow the rules banks must follow.

But is Lend a security ? As far as I can tell, there's no contract for capital flows that you can trade with others. Lend isn't fungible, the USDC is.

Startup stock is a security, despite trade restrictions (e.g. right of first refusal). Same with restricted (i.e. unvested) stock units.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#200
To everyone saying "Well it's just obviously a security", you may well be right. But securities law and the Howey test are actually pretty complicated. If the SEC has a rationale for why this product is a security, that's great, they should share it.

It's possible Brian is being dishonest in his presentation of their interaction. It's possible the SEC did give him a rationale and he just didn't like it. But if we take what he's saying at face value, the SEC's behavior here is unacceptable for a regulator, regardless of what you think of the crypto industry.

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