Live data from Hacker News

The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

blog.coinbase.com

21–30 of 454 posts

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#22

Seems to be gone from the internet. Can't find it in archive.today or archive.org either. reddit comment thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pk2rjl/coin... Which points to a tweet thread from Brian Armstrong of Coinbase that is still there for now.... https://twitter.com/brian_armstrong/status/14354409980546539... unrolled (and probably will still be there even if tweets deleted?) https://threadr…

It's there for me. Copied below if people are still having trouble seeing it.

The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why.

By Paul Grewal, Chief Legal Officer

Last Wednesday, after months of effort by Coinbase to engage productively, the SEC gave us what’s called a Wells notice about our planned Coinbase Lend program. A Wells notice is the official way a regulator tells a company that it intends to sue the company in court. As surprised as we were at the SEC’s threat to sue without ever telling us why, we want to be transparent with you about the course of events leading up to it.

Background

Coinbase has been proactively engaging with the SEC about Lend for nearly six months. We’ve been eager to hear their perspective as we explore innovative ways for our customers to gain more financial empowerment on Coinbase. Specifically for Lend, we’re seeking to allow eligible customers to earn interest on select assets on Coinbase, starting with 4% APY on USD Coin (USDC). We could have simply launched the product but we chose not to. This is far from the norm in our industry. Other crypto companies have had lending products on the market for years, and new lending products continue to launch as recently as last month. But Coinbase believes in the value of open and substantive dialogue with our regulators. So we took Lend to the SEC first.

What we’ve provided to the SEC

Coinbase’s Lend program doesn’t qualify as a security — or to use more specific legal terms, it’s not an investment contract or a note. Customers won’t be “investing” in the program, but rather lending the USDC they hold on Coinbase’s platform in connection with their existing relationship. And although Lend customers will earn interest from their participation in the program, we have an obligation to pay this interest regardless of Coinbase’s broader business activities. What’s more, participating customers’ principal is secure and we’re obligated to repay their USDC on request.

We shared this view and the details of Lend with the SEC. After our initial meeting, we answered all of the SEC’s questions in writing and then again in person. But we didn’t get much of a response. The SEC told us they consider Lend to involve a security, but wouldn’t say why or how they’d reached that conclusion. Rather than get discouraged, we chose to continue taking things slowly. In June, we announced our Lend program publicly and opened a waitlist but did not set a public launch date. But once again, we got no explanation from the SEC. Instead, they opened a formal investigation. They asked for documents and written responses, and we willingly provided them. They also asked for us to provide a corporate witness to give sworn testimony about the program. As a result, one of our employees spent a full day in August providing complete and transparent testimony about Lend. They also asked for the name and contact information of every single person on our Lend waitlist. We have not agreed to provide that because we take a very cautious approach to requests for customers’ personal information. We also don’t believe it is relevant to any particular questions the SEC might have about Lend involving a security, especially when the SEC won’t share any of those questions with us.

State of play & next steps

Despite Coinbase keeping Lend off the market and providing detailed information, the SEC still won’t explain why they see a problem. Rather they have now told us that if we launch Lend they intend to sue. Yet again, we asked if the SEC would share their reasoning with us, and yet again they refused. They have only told us that they are assessing our Lend product through the prism of decades-old Supreme Court cases called Howey and Reves. The SEC won’t share the assessment itself, only the fact that they have done it. These two cases are from 1946 and 1990. Formal guidance from the SEC about how they intend to apply Howey and Reves tests to products like Lend would be a big help to regulating our industry in a responsible way. Instead, last week’s Wells notice tells us that the SEC would rather skip those basic regulatory steps and go right to litigation. They’ve offered us the chance to submit a written defense of Lend, but that would be futile when we don’t know the reasons behind the SEC’s concerns.

The SEC has repeatedly asked our industry to “talk to us, come in.” We did that here. But today all we know is that we can either keep Lend off the market indefinitely without knowing why or we can be sued. A healthy regulatory relationship should never leave the industry in that kind of bind without explanation. Dialogue is at the heart of good regulation.

The net result of all this is that we will not be launching Lend until at least October. Coinbase continues to welcome additional regulatory clarity; mystery and ambiguity only serve to unnecessarily stifle new products that customers want and that Coinbase and others can safely deliver.

We will keep our customers informed at every step as things progress.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#23
I actually initially wanted to be on Coinbase’s side here, but after a quick google of “Howey test” and reading even just the introduction on Wikipedia, I cannot imagine how they don’t see the SEC’s reasoning about Lend wrt Howey. If you want to argue that Howey does not apply or fight the decision/lawsuit, then fine. But feigning ignorance of something a (non-legal expert) programmer can connect the dots of instantly just makes me feel like they’re playing a PR game. Seeing as they are already offering APY on staked Ethereum, I don’t see “concern” reflected in their actions. Seems like they are trying to get out to the public before the SEC does to farm some good will.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#24
I would like to think that even the most crypto-skeptical here, those who wish the entire ecosystem would collapse in flames, would agree that the SEC and other regulatory bodies need to operate with transparent rules, making it clear when and why a company is violating the law. Operating short of that is not, by conventional definition, operating under the rule of law.

It seems pretty clear that the SEC is not currently meeting those standards, and that needs to be fixed. Whether or not the target is one we are currently sympathetic towards.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#25
“We have no idea why the SEC intends to sue us! It is a complete mystery.”

(Later in the post…)

“All we’ve done is create a thing that people can trade which we are moving towards selling to investors against specific SEC advice to the contrary, but it is definitely not a security and as a result it is completely fine even though we have not complied with SEC regulations in any way with respect to it.”

A mystery indeed…

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#26
As dangerous as it sounds for the industry, this article tells us they’ve discussed with the SEC without telling us what was said on their side. It’s difficult to share their confusion if we don’t know what they have fed the regulator.

Common sense makes it sound like Lend is clearly not about securities, but the SEC has generally been looking for settlements or discussion instead of straight litigation. Why the change of motus operandi? Is it because Coinbase is big and it would make an example, or maybe somewhere in Lend there’s a business model that makes the product act like a security? Who knows at this point?

More information from Coinbase would help us empathize.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#28

I would like to think that even the most crypto-skeptical here, those who wish the entire ecosystem would collapse in flames, would agree that the SEC and other regulatory bodies need to operate with transparent rules, making it clear when and why a company is violating the law. Operating short of that is not, by conventional definition, operating under the rule of law. It seems pretty clear that the SEC is not curre…

They are operating by transparent rules. Howey test has been on the books since 1946:

1. The existence of an investment contract

2. The formation of a common enterprise

3. A promise of profits by the issuer

4. The use of a third party to promote the offering

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#29

I actually initially wanted to be on Coinbase’s side here, but after a quick google of “Howey test” and reading even just the introduction on Wikipedia, I cannot imagine how they don’t see the SEC’s reasoning about Lend wrt Howey. If you want to argue that Howey does not apply or fight the decision/lawsuit, then fine. But feigning ignorance of something a (non-legal expert) programmer can connect the dots of instantl…

Brian's concern in the tweet thread is that a lot of other companies are already providing lending services without SEC action, putting Coinbase at a disadvantage.

The rule should be applied across the industry in a standard manner, no matter which direction the SEC rules, and it is apparently not being applied consistently currently.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#30
post #28

I would like to think that even the most crypto-skeptical here, those who wish the entire ecosystem would collapse in flames, would agree that the SEC and other regulatory bodies need to operate with transparent rules, making it clear when and why a company is violating the law. Operating short of that is not, by conventional definition, operating under the rule of law. It seems pretty clear that the SEC is not curre…

They are operating by transparent rules. Howey test has been on the books since 1946: 1. The existence of an investment contract 2. The formation of a common enterprise 3. A promise of profits by the issuer 4. The use of a third party to promote the offering

At minimum, if that was true, Coinbase's competitors would not be freely operating the same service without SEC action.
Post reply on HN