Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado • Hacker News Board

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#181

Post by InTheArena » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #178

InTheArena wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, as someone who lives in Colorado, and is affected by this law, which was something widely reported on, nor was it bipartisan, it's not too early to form a judgement on this.

I would insist that it is. If other states follow CO with this type of legislation, it will result in all (most) companies deciding to do what many people consider the right thing. If they do not, and CO remains alone in this requirement, then the longer term conclusion will look different. I'm sorry if that comes at some personal cost to you, but there are very [ EDIT: few ] social changes that don't cost someone so…

It's always great, as long as it's someone else paying the price.

Put it another way - the positions that this law are impacting around positions that lack a competitive market for people. This isn't affecting people who want to know if McDonald's or Taco Bell pays more. It's affecting people who are looking for high paying software development and management roles.

There is a constant pattern of the last decade of different institutions running special bills in Colorado before rolling it out on the west cost. This is just another example.

This bill might have made sense when everyone is going into offices. It makes no sense now.

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#182

Post by JakeStone » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 11:17 PM UTC

acchow wrote: post #68

GoatOfAplomb wrote: post #62

One of the top results, Accenture, seems to have evolved to provide a very wide range for Colorado instead: "As required by the Colorado Equal Pay Transparency Act, Accenture provides a reasonable range of minimum compensation for roles that may be hired in Colorado. Actual compensation is influenced by a wide array of factors including but not limited to skill set, level of experience, and specific office location.…

Given that the signed law does not define the term "range", I imagine every company could get around this by giving a range $1-1M

A couple of years ago, I got some email about a possible job. Salary range listed was $50K-$2M.

Deleted that one quickly.

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#183

Post by wyager » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 11:32 PM UTC

HeWhoLurksLate wrote: post #150

wyager wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think working for an employer because you identify with their “mission” is deeply unhealthy for both individual employees and for society at large. In almost all cases, employment should be a purely financial transaction, and if you’re looking for something “deeper” you should probably work for yourself or start a new company.

I've worked jobs with a healthy social culture (most people are nice & respectful) and unhealthy ones (most people are cold, calculating, and don't give a crap about you), as well as worked on things I would deem "interesting" (brain stimulating, not "fun") and "boring" (not solving problems, just doing legwork, without the creating novel solutions part, more or less). When I was younger, I worked at a carwash where…

I didn’t mention any of the stuff you’re defending; my comment was specifically about working for a place because of “the mission”. A job being transactional doesn’t prevent it from being fun or friendly.

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#184

Post by kazoomonger » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 11:34 PM UTC

drstewart wrote: post #123

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #45

I’d love to see a law that goes a step further and also mandates that everyone’s salary be public knowledge to everyone else within the same company. If this generates resentment, it means the company is poorly managed. The company would therefore either be compelled to fix their pay discrepancies (thereby allaying the resentment) or risk losing resentful employees to other companies. It would also be great if this c…

I'd like to see a law forcing companies to pay everyone $1,000,000/year. Then we'd all be rich. It's so easy, I can't believe no one has thought of it before. Just force people to do stuff.

This is a pretty lazy dismissal that doesn't even make clear the connection you're trying to make.

How is open salary information the same as paying everyone $1M/year?

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#185

Post by s1artibartfast » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

acchow wrote: post #65

From the signed law: "(2) AN EMPLOYER SHALL DISCLOSE IN EACH POSTING FOR EACH JOB OPENING THE HOURLY OR SALARY COMPENSATION, OR A RANGE OF THE HOURLY OR SALARY COMPENSATION, AND A GENERAL DESCRIPTION OF ALL OF THE BENEFITS AND OTHER COMPENSATION TO BE OFFERED TO THE HIRED APPLICANT. " Nowhere in the document do they define the term "range". If an employer wants to discriminate, couldn't they just give a wide range? h…

There are many other requirements of the law. If I read correctly, it also allows any job applicant to sue in civil court, requires companies to maintain new salary records, and post all positions internally.

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#186

Post by newbie789 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 11:56 PM UTC

hackingforfun wrote: post #96

newbie789 wrote: post #61

This is a great list of companies that I will avoid applying for. I don’t live in Colorado, but there’s something kind of I don’t know, petulant? Childish? Willfully insulting? to the phrase “ Remote work location is flexible if approved by the Company, except that position can not be performed remotely from Colorado.” I think what really sticks in my craw about that statement is that it’s a bold-faced lie. If a comp…

Regarding remote jobs and geography, there are also nexus laws to consider. Companies are sometimes only set up to have employees in certain states. The larger the company, the more states they will have nexus in. If a company hasn't already set up nexus in a state, and if it's for just one employee, they might not want to set up nexus there, for tax reasons. I was told this when I was considering moving to another s…

> Regarding remote jobs and geography, there are also nexus laws to consider. Companies are sometimes only set up to have employees in certain states.

It is a true statement that there’s an extant possibility that some businesses are incapable of operating in the state of Colorado for reasons that have nothing to do with artificially depressing wages.

My comment about not wanting to work for or with these companies is due to them nakedly advertising that they’re valuing the artificial depression of wages. While it’s a neat thought that there maybe exists a universe where it’s a coincidence that “anywhere in the country but Colorado” became a common phrase in job postings, I’m not really sure why entertaining that fantasy is useful.

To clarify, I’m directly addressing clearly worker-hostile behavior that I can see happening plainly, not a theoretical that could be happening at a business inside of a thought experiment.

I doubt these businesses will suffer without my being employed with them so I don’t really care.

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#187

Post by stickfigure » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 12:04 AM UTC

namrog84 wrote: post #63

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #45

I’d love to see a law that goes a step further and also mandates that everyone’s salary be public knowledge to everyone else within the same company. If this generates resentment, it means the company is poorly managed. The company would therefore either be compelled to fix their pay discrepancies (thereby allaying the resentment) or risk losing resentful employees to other companies. It would also be great if this c…

Even if you didn't give specific dollar per person. I agree. There should be known ranges for a position and years of service as minimum Similar to military if you know someone's pay and years. You know their minimum. But they might get additional amount for other reasons. I think a good starting place is say position x pays between 35k and 40k for 1 to 5 years in position. Its removes a little burden on jealously of…

> There should be known ranges for a position and years of service as minimum

Because value production is an exact function of job title and seniority?

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#188

Post by stickfigure » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

ricksunny wrote: post #56

stickfigure wrote: post #19

Seems like the law of unintended consequences at work?

Avoiding the so-called 'Law of unintended consequences' is used a lot to try and justify races-to-the-bottom. A jurisdiction could require better environmental safeguards, encouraging high-polluting employers to leave that jurisdiction for [$name-of-jurisdiction-with-more-lax-environmental-regulations]. That doesn't mean the environmental safeguards should never be promulgated.

...and sometimes it's just a dumb law that doesn't provide the results the authors expect. See also: Cookie accept banners.

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#189

Post by thehappypm » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

kdmccormick wrote: post #37

thehappypm wrote: post #29

The Colorado law to me strikes me as a pretty huge government overreach. I fully believe in minimum wage laws, and that feels like an appropriate regulation to me, but this just feels like it's almost attacking these companies, interfering with their hiring processes, and I fully see why companies would rather not bother hiring in what boils down to 1 mid-sized metro area than deal with the consequences.

Could you explain why minimum wage laws aren't overreach but this is?

Minimum wages protect people from exploitation.

This law vaguely benefits workers who are nowhere near the poverty line. Just let the employee and employer figure out wages!

Re: Companies that are avoiding hiring in Colorado

#190

Post by kdmccormick » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:13 AM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #189

kdmccormick wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain why minimum wage laws aren't overreach but this is?

Minimum wages protect people from exploitation. This law vaguely benefits workers who are nowhere near the poverty line. Just let the employee and employer figure out wages!

> This law vaguely benefits workers who are nowhere near the poverty line.

Unless I'm misunderstanding it, Colorado's new law applies to salaried jobs in all income brackets. For someone who's poor and desperately job hunting, knowing whether a job's salary range is 20k-30k versus 25k-35k before having to go through a gauntlet of interviews sounds like it could make a big difference.