Live data from Hacker News

El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

nbcnews.com

241–250 of 394 posts

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal banks already do that

> Normal banks already do that 70% of El Salvadorians don't have a bank account [1]. [1] https://datacatalog.worldbank.org/dataset/el-salvador-global...

What you said does not contradict the parent comment. Just because Bitcoin is now a thing in El Salvador it doesn't mean that that missing 70% will now starting using it.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#242
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, that is completely inaccurate. > First of all, with current parameters that would mean that you need a good few hundred years to process a few seconds of world-wide transactions. If you settle everything onchain, maybe (I haven't done the math on this, so I honestly don't know), but storing every transaction for a cup of coffee in a datastore that persists across tens of thousands of computers for the rest of t…

But the total amount of data stored in the Lightning network is even more absurd. Not only do we store "A has paid B 1 SAT" for all time, we actually store "A is paying C 1SAT for B; C is paying D 1SAT for B; E is paying F 1SAT for B; F is paying B 1SAT".

The transactions within an open channel are only stored by the two owners of the channel. The entire network does not need to store, nor does it even get to see these transactions. They can even be private. When the channel is closed none of the channel transactions need to be committed to the blockchain, only the final balances of the channel between the two participants.

A lightning channel does require an onchain bitcoin transaction both to be opened and closed, but while open it supports unlimited transactions within the channel while it is open without increasing the onchain storage burden on the network validation nodes further beyond the two transactions to open and close the channel.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#243
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such an ignorant comment. There are hundreds of millions Bitcoin users globally, and only a very small fraction of them are criminals of any kind. And let's ignore the actual criminals who legally counterfeit US dollars to finance war all around the world.

> And let's ignore the actual criminals who legally counterfeit US dollars to finance war all around the world. I've not heard of a legal counterfeiter. How's that work?

The Federal Reserve has a legalized monopoly on counterfeiting US dollars. [0]

[0] https://mises.org/library/fed-giant-counterfeiter

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy use is not energy source. There's been no full accounting of the carbon footprint of bitcoin mining, only its use. Much of it is done using geothermal or other renewable sources. (edit, incorrect) That El Salvador is adopting it refutes your second claim. Then there's the lightning network which increases the transaction throughput. Everything is going to be okay.

Using renewable energy still takes that opportunity away from other users who end up stuck with X% of their energy use provided by non-renewables, so the real carbon footprint is still similar.

> Using renewable energy still takes that opportunity away from other users […]

This would be true only if electrical capacity were completely inelastic. It is not. Electrical capacity is relatively slow to respond to changes in demand, sure, but it does respond.

Consider the scale of the increase in electrical capacity that will be needed to fully move the US alone to EVs. That change will not have a hard cost cap, either - people are willing to pay quite a bit to operate their automobiles, and the current cost to operate an EV is substantially less than the cost of operating a similar ICE vehicle. Bitcoin mining does have a hard cost cap: ([Bitcoin price] * 6.25 + [Bitcoin price] * [~10 minutes of transaction fees]). In about 2024, that 6.25 will drop to 3.125.

Ultimately Bitcoin mining is driven by economic forces, and those same forces are the same that control the scale of power generation worldwide.

You can see Bitcoin’s energy use as being used only to secure the network; I see it as securing the network and driving incentives for the development and expansion of electrical infrastructure.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy use is not energy source. There's been no full accounting of the carbon footprint of bitcoin mining, only its use. Much of it is done using geothermal or other renewable sources. (edit, incorrect) That El Salvador is adopting it refutes your second claim. Then there's the lightning network which increases the transaction throughput. Everything is going to be okay.

> Energy use is not energy source I’ll go a step further - Bitcoin’s energy use is centralized around the cheapest sources due to economic forces. If renewables are cheaper at scale than fossil fuels, Bitcoin’s energy use could in fact become a net positive for the world. To put it another way, the profitability of mining is directly proportional to the cost of electricity compared to the global average. This should…

Using renewables to do something that doesn't need to be done is not a win.

I divested from all PoW coins except ETH in expectation that PoS will be completed soon.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#246
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is AlgoDex not working? According to their site[0] no, but now they do have a testnet demo. Looking at the demo it's Order Book, not AMM which further makes me think that AMMs are still impossible there while Order Book-style can always be done with some centralization. The docs are sadly one tiny page that has no technical details so I won't dig further. >What would be the purpose of rushing out tools and smart con…

>Cool, if I see them working how I see similar dapps working As if installing a custom browser plugin and managing a wallet thru the browser is convenient for any average user. Lofty.AI is far better than the current crap-dapps workflow. Add the token to your Algo wallet, buy them on Lofty with CC or bank account. Done. >Are they? I see devs that try and fail to build there I literally just provided two HN startups t…

By see them working I mean have a working dapp on the mainnet I can use. Not a few static pages and a waitlist.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#247
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Cool, if I see them working how I see similar dapps working As if installing a custom browser plugin and managing a wallet thru the browser is convenient for any average user. Lofty.AI is far better than the current crap-dapps workflow. Add the token to your Algo wallet, buy them on Lofty with CC or bank account. Done. >Are they? I see devs that try and fail to build there I literally just provided two HN startups t…

By see them working I mean have a working dapp on the mainnet I can use. Not a few static pages and a waitlist.

It is on MainNet, I already own property tokens that are paying me rental cash daily.

https://www.lofty.ai/account/register

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#248
post #8

Best part is the President trolling the IMF on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1435263064933285898

My god, an actual meme trader is running a country and using its bank as his Robinhood account.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#249

I'm really interested that they chose BTC as opposed to making their own, which as I understand it isn't super hard to do? Tying to an already-established commodity, and an exceptionally volatile one at that, seems wildly irresponsible to me, but I'm very VERY under-educated in this area

Considering only “Bitcoin-like” proof of work blockchains, starting an independent chain subjects you to security risks. If the computing resources of the entire country of El Salvador were devoted to mining their Bitcoin fork 24/7365, it would still likely be possible for a richer country to temporarily allocate more computing resources and “undoing” transactions, effectively destroying the validity of the transaction history.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. That would only be true if storing and/or transporting energy was cheap or easy.

Yes, that is a factor. Other factors include abandoned coal fire plants being restarted for mining. The question is not if there is a factor that is positive, but whether the positives outweigh the negatives. Every source I have seen is confident they do not.

That's a pretty different claim from the one I replied to, but yes I agree additional consumption of fossil fuels is an important factor.

The claim that consumption of renewable energy is equivalent to consumption of fossil fuels, because that renewable energy would have otherwise offset fossil fuel consumption I don't agree with though.

Post reply on HN