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El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

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Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#231

Post by [deleted] »

liquidise wrote: post #186
Devasta wrote: post #165

Let's ignore that Bitcoin is climate arson, and that its only used for money laundering and buying drugs. Bitcoin has a max throughput of 7 transactions per second. It's utter lunacy to suggest that it could function as a currency for a country. This will only end in tears.

> that its only used for money laundering and buying drugs I am not surprised to see hyperbole like this, but i'm disappointed that they are so routinely upvoted. I've personally used bitcoin for sending money across borders (for legitimate purposes) and never for drugs or money laundering. Apologies for my reactivity, but i think highly of the HN community and get deeply frustrated that this sort of ignorant hyperbo…

[deleted]

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#232

Post by rgrieselhuber »

HWR_14 wrote: post #194
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paid to whom? If it was created out of hot air, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than it is now.

BTC is quite literally made out of hot air. Burning coal to create hot air to spin turbines is the most common energy source for BTC mining. And "hot air" describes most of it's coals replacements as well.

And yet it still costs far less energy to mine Bitcoin than it does to sustain Petrodollars.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#233

Post by Ancapistani »

kleer001 wrote: post #177
Devasta wrote: post #165

Let's ignore that Bitcoin is climate arson, and that its only used for money laundering and buying drugs. Bitcoin has a max throughput of 7 transactions per second. It's utter lunacy to suggest that it could function as a currency for a country. This will only end in tears.

Energy use is not energy source. There's been no full accounting of the carbon footprint of bitcoin mining, only its use. Much of it is done using geothermal or other renewable sources. (edit, incorrect) That El Salvador is adopting it refutes your second claim. Then there's the lightning network which increases the transaction throughput. Everything is going to be okay.

> Energy use is not energy source

I’ll go a step further - Bitcoin’s energy use is centralized around the cheapest sources due to economic forces. If renewables are cheaper at scale than fossil fuels, Bitcoin’s energy use could in fact become a net positive for the world.

To put it another way, the profitability of mining is directly proportional to the cost of electricity compared to the global average. This should drive the development of less expensive forms of energy over time. Even if fossil fuels are cheapest today (and I’m not certain that’s true), there is an ongoing cost floor due to it relying upon extraction, processing, transportation, and burning. Solar, for example, has a higher capital cost but presumably a lower ongoing $/kWh.

Finally, ~5% (2.2-13.3%) of electricity generated in the US is lost due to transmission from the point of generation to the point of consumption. India loses 20-30%. [0] Bitcoin mining, given its high power consumption, should specifically drive decentralized power generation. This in turn could help make such technology available for other uses, resulting in a less centralized, more robust power grid.

0: http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-...

1: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=23452

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#234

Post by okl »

BTCOG wrote: post #220
okl wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's created out of hot air and instead of interest you have crazy transaction fees.

100% BULLSHIT. The fees on Bitcoin, on chain, have been less than 75 cents the entire year of 2021. The average tx on chain the past 9 months has been about 10-15 cents. Unless you stand here trying to tell everyone that 10 cents is a crazy transaction fee. Quit lying, or better yet quit spreading FUD purposely.

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees...

https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_f...

https://www.blockchain.com/charts/fees-usd-per-transaction

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#235

Post by oh_sigh »

la_fayette wrote: post #225
oh_sigh wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most cases, economic transactions are beneficial for both parties. Yes, banks are "earning money with the poorest", but only because banks and literally every business engage in activities which (ideally) earn them money. Right now, the poor have a choice of using a banks service, or to not use it. The bank could, I guess, not offer services to the poor, but that seems like you're removing choices from the poor, n…

The homo economicus would search for the cheapest way to do so, thats why they start to use bitcoin and tranfer it to tjeir grandmom...

Sure, but when a more cost effective technology comes along, it doesn't mean that it indicates that the old way was a rip off or exploitative, especially when the newer method lacks numerous requirements the government put in place for the old method.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#236

Post by xur17 »

SamPatt wrote: post #187
simiones wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the total amount of data stored in the Lightning network is even more absurd. Not only do we store "A has paid B 1 SAT" for all time, we actually store "A is paying C 1SAT for B; C is paying D 1SAT for B; E is paying F 1SAT for B; F is paying B 1SAT".

Not everyone is forced to store it though. You don't need consensus about the state of the entire network on layer 2 like you do on layer 1. So it's not really a problem.

More specifically, only the channel participants have to store it, and only as long as the channel is open.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#237

Post by okl »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #232
HWR_14 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTC is quite literally made out of hot air. Burning coal to create hot air to spin turbines is the most common energy source for BTC mining. And "hot air" describes most of it's coals replacements as well.

And yet it still costs far less energy to mine Bitcoin than it does to sustain Petrodollars.

Do you have data for that comparison?

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#238

Post by dQw4w9WgXcQ »

Tenoke wrote: post #228
dQw4w9WgXcQ wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is AlgoDex not working? What would be the purpose of rushing out tools and smart contracts that need to be verified and routinely cause irreparable damage due to security and bugs? There are already two HN startups using Algorand: 1) Lofty.AI, which has been a smash hit for tokenizing real estate and making daily income and 2) Algofi, which is S21 and intended for lending. There's also ANote + Opulous for owning toke…

>Is AlgoDex not working? According to their site[0] no, but now they do have a testnet demo. Looking at the demo it's Order Book, not AMM which further makes me think that AMMs are still impossible there while Order Book-style can always be done with some centralization. The docs are sadly one tiny page that has no technical details so I won't dig further. >What would be the purpose of rushing out tools and smart con…

>Cool, if I see them working how I see similar dapps working

As if installing a custom browser plugin and managing a wallet thru the browser is convenient for any average user. Lofty.AI is far better than the current crap-dapps workflow. Add the token to your Algo wallet, buy them on Lofty with CC or bank account. Done.

>Are they? I see devs that try and fail to build there

I literally just provided two HN startups that are using it now, including one that pivoted to use it. There's also $50M+ in assets on Yieldly and there is still no simpler crypto wallet to use than the Algorand branded wallet.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#239

Post by quantumBerry »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #199
washedup wrote: post #6

As a country where remittances make up roughly 20% of the GDP, and with remittance fees as high as 20% or more, this could boost GDP by 4-5%. Not surprising to see them be the first to do this. Others will likely follow.

> remittance fees as high as 20% or more Average remittance costs for El Salvador are between 1.67% and 4.33%, with the average being 2.85% [1]. Meanwhile, the two Bitcoin ATMs in the country charged a 5% fee. [1] https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2021/06/Bukeles-Bitc...

Allowing BTC to function as currency bypasses the fiat conversion at the ATM; so your statement emboldens the argument for El Salvador making it a legal tender.

Re: El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as official currency, first country to do so

#240

Post by lottin »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #135
ridethebike wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This probably eliminates this whole "bitcoin is privacy and independence from government" thing but I think for majority of bitcoin buyers it was not more than just a nice talking point anyway.

The best argument for Bitcoin is that it’s not created out of thin air and then lent to people with interest, IMO.

Bitcoin is created out of thin air. Where do you think bitcoins come from?
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