Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#541

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #526

someguy321 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If outcomes between groups are different, investigation into underlying causes of differences in group outcomes is often useful- bigotry need not be a motivation.

What I see is that if a difference is indeed found, there can only be two reasons for it: Racism or sexism. Computer science or video games are an example. The demographics allegedly show very prevalent sexism here that is allegedly responsible for said difference. The self-reflection about how other fields have similar one-sided demographics with the opposite sex isn't interesting on the other hand. On the contrary,…

[deleted]

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#542

Post by NoImmatureAdHom » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #220

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #152

In these comments: people doing apologetics for a vision of the world where everyone is born with equal potential. I am a scientist, I work on these things, and I am here to tell you that: --Intelligence is largely (~70-80% of variance) inherited --Your personality is largely determined by genetics and is pretty much settled in to what it will always be by ~30 --If you don't learn to count right by ~4 you never will…

People like me would be more convinced by your rant/flamebait if you provided sources for your claims. You claimed that the "broad strokes here are not up for debate" so it should be trivial for you to provide sources. Since you don't, it's hard to take your arguments seriously. Everyone can make unsubstantiated claims, providing evidence is the difficult part. I'm sure you understand that the "trust me, I'm a scient…

Yeah, as I said elsewhere this is a reasonable request. I was writing in a moment of passion very late at night. I am supposed to do a variety of "real work" today but I'll see what I can gin up.

The things I listed are "the sky is blue"-type claims to people who do evolution stuff.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#543

Post by zepto » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

cloudfifty wrote: post #522

xyzzyz wrote: post #516

The problem is that socialism inevitably leads to authoritarianism through its very nature. See, for example, Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom”, where he lays this case pretty extensively.

That's not some objective fact. Furthermore you realise that Hayek himself wasn't a democrat?

It’s an empirical fact.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#544

Post by Hermitian909 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #381

Hermitian909 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more people can learn algebra than OP implies, but as a former math educator my experience also indicates some people are genetically limited in mathematics. For reference, my specialty was working with very remedial students and only ever had a few students not make progress (~2%) but I do think that small percent was genuinely hopeless and I don't say that lightly. I have a pet theory as to why those st…

I always wondered if the teachers understood how much effort people put in. Especially in something like math, where you can't just waffle. I got the feeling as a kid that a lot of my classmates would just give up. I mean they're sitting there acting like they're concentrating on math, but they aren't. In other classes intermittent attention is enough, you pick up social cues and repeated stories that you've heard, a…

> How do you control for that as a teacher observing the kids?

The only solution I ever found was not having more than 3 students at a time, not an option for most teachers; I spent most of my career working with 1-3 students as a result. With that few students you can carefully observe the mistakes students are making and ask individual questions about their mental state. Experience will eventually tell you to differentiate students not putting in effort from students who are so lost that they're just flailing and hoping something sticks.

With more students, my experience was that both my attention became too split to give students the kind of careful diagnosis to control for effort.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#545

Post by zepto » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #470

FiberBundle wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are the Nordics or most of Europe socialist? Absolutely not. They are primarily market based with a relatively large welfare state. How is that even a question?

Because that is what most "socialists" want, meaning your definition of socialism and theirs are probably very different.

Is it?

The socialists I am aware of are openly anti-capitalist, and want to focus on oppression above anything else, placing race and gender based oppression at the top of a hierarchy to be countered.

They are explicitly opposed to many aspects of the Scandinavian model which is largely market based, for example School Vouchers which are used in Sweden, would unthinkable to an American socialist.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#546

Post by cloudfifty » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #543

cloudfifty wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not some objective fact. Furthermore you realise that Hayek himself wasn't a democrat?

It’s an empirical fact.

No it's not. "Leads to" signifies that something turns into it. The regimes that are commonly referred to never turned authoritarian, they started authoritarian - much to Chomsky's and other libertarian socialists dismay.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#547

Post by FooBarBizBazz » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

smhost wrote: post #164

Hermitian909 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more people can learn algebra than OP implies, but as a former math educator my experience also indicates some people are genetically limited in mathematics. For reference, my specialty was working with very remedial students and only ever had a few students not make progress (~2%) but I do think that small percent was genuinely hopeless and I don't say that lightly. I have a pet theory as to why those st…

HN crowd doesn't think twice about people who try to run DOOM on a stack of pennies, but are ready to give up before trying to get algebra to run on someone with less working memory. It's weird how different the attitude is.

What if it's possible, but only using an intensity of operant conditioning that would be considered inhumane?

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#548

Post by NoImmatureAdHom » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #243

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, as the other child comment says I'm not sure what you're getting at with speech acquisition. Here's a study I plucked: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/

Here is a quote from the study: > However, for intelligence, heritability increases linearly, from (approximately) 20% in infancy to 40% in adolescence, and to 60% in adulthood. Some evidence suggests that heritability might increase to as much as 80% in later adulthood but then decline to about 60% after age 80. It does not corroborate the claim "Intelligence is largely (~70-80% of variance) inherited".

That sounds right on the money to me?

Variance in all traits is higher in childhood. The idea is that you grow into your mostly pre-determined self.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#549

Post by zepto » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

cloudfifty wrote: post #546

zepto wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an empirical fact.

No it's not. "Leads to" signifies that something turns into it. The regimes that are commonly referred to never turned authoritarian, they started authoritarian - much to Chomsky's and other libertarian socialists dismay.

Ok, I’ll give you that distinction.

Socialism inevitably is authoritarian.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#550

Post by NoImmatureAdHom » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

deltasixeight wrote: post #239

Tade0 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> --Intelligence is largely (~70-80% of variance) inherited Citation needed, especially given that there are enormous differences in intelligence between people who acquired speech and those who didn't.

I hope this need for a citation comes from genuine curiosity and not some misguided ideological want to uphold the notion of equality in intelligence. It just doesn't make sense given a more macroscopic view of things. If inheritance obviously controls the difference in intelligence between the human brain and the dog brain, or the cat brain, or the monkey brain, what black magic makes it so that among humans themsel…

Yep, I agree with basically all of this. A reasonable rhetorical move when speaking to science-deniers about inheritance is, "Do you have a principled way of telling people from rocks on the basis of intelligence, then?"