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Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

sociology.ucsc.edu

31–40 of 207 posts

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#31
I found this article poorly written and defended. I didn't find it HN worthy. It is basically an investment manager complaining that the wealthiest Americans are mostly in finance and don't pay enough taxes because most of their earnings are from capital gains. He makes a lot of presuppositions in his writing that he never defends. For example:

"I asked if her colleagues talked about or understood how much damage was created in the broader economy from their activities."

How does finance destroy the broader economy in general? Liquid functional capital markets are critical for a stable economy. Finance is only bad for the economy when incentives are structures so that government limits the downside.

"America's top corporations reported 31% profit growth and a 31% reduction in taxes, the latter due to profit outsourcing to low tax rate countries."

Outsourcing is not bad. He treats it like it is a dirty world. Companies should have work done where it is most efficient. Google comparative advantage. "It wasn't the hard-working 99.5%"

Because the top .5% aren't hard working.

"In my view, the American dream of striking it rich is merely a well-marketed fantasy that keeps the bottom 99.5% hoping for better and prevents social and political instability. The odds of getting into that top 0.5% are very slim and the door is kept firmly shut by those within it."

By definition, the odds of getting into the top .5% have to be very slim because only .5% of the population can get in there.

Also, I should note that the lower 99.5% benefit from lower capital gains taxes when it comes to appreciation on their homes. Obviously, this hasn't been a benefit lately. But, this is important given that the home constitutes the biggest chunk of net worth for many families.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#32
post #11
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what's the problem that you're solving?

I'm assuming it's increasing the long term capital gains tax rate. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United... , the short term rate is as arjunnarayan suggested, barring any differences in exemptions between capital gains and income tax rates.

It's also an issue of timing and deferral. Because one can offset short-term capital gains with capital losses, and individuals generally have absolute control over realization of capital gains, the effective rate on capital gains can effectively be zero or near-zero given sufficient liquidity, despite a statutory rate equal to the ordinary income rate.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#33
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a non-US citizen works at a diner in a tax haven or anywhere else abroad, and brings money into the US, they typically pay 0% tax (to the US) on that money. This is the analogous situation to non-US corporations (possibly owned by US corps) leaving profits overseas.

But typically, they are working there, not setting up a virtual office. If these super rich are working in the US, they should pay tax. If they are not working, why don't they deserve to be taxed?

The super rich working in the US do pay tax on their income. You seem to be conflating many separate issues, so let me explain in detail how it works.

Sergei Brin pays taxes on his income to the US.

Google Ireland doesn't pay taxes to the US on income earned in Ireland until they transfer the money to the US. (They do, however, pay taxes to Ireland.)

A guy working at a diner in Ireland will, as far as I know, never pay taxes even if he does transfer money to the US.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#34
post #20

[deleted]

Pass. If you think that the state of America's economy today in any way requires violent insurrection to "rectify" then you have either a bizarrely warped sense of reality or a very unusual set of ideals.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#35

There's a pretty simple solution: Abolish the capital gains tax, and tax all capital gains at the income tax rate. There is no more "capital gain". Only income. Whether your income was earned through labor or rents on capital that you own seems rather irrelevant to me.

Let's think about secondary effects.

What percent of very wealthy Americans do you think would renounce their citizenship based on this? How much less investment capital would there be in the USA based on that?

Note: Not asking for a value judgment ("good riddance if they do!" - not productive). Just your estimate as to what percent of wealthy Americans would give up their citizenship and how much less investment capital would result. It's an important detail to consider.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#36
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax avoidance. (The marginal rate of tax on capital gains is generally much lower than the marginal rate of tax on an equivalent earned income. The investment professionals who strike it big do so by engineering their income to arrive in the shape of capital. Tax it as income and suddenly a whole lot more tax revenue shows up ... and the Gini coefficient in the society in question drops a little bit.)

Taking advantage of capital gains might be tax avoidance from a certain point of view, but it's also a useful for helping grow wealth and the economy in general. Having large sums of private capital helps the economy-- how does it help it? By making it easy to borrow money, like the VC that so many HNers are seeking.

So the argument for differential taxation of income versus capital gains is to incentive investment. However, I'm not sure investment needs to be incentivized right now. There is a ton of private capital floating around right now looking for productive investments in the US, and they just don't exist. So the money goes overseas, or into elaborate, questionable financial instruments.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#37
post #31

I found this article poorly written and defended. I didn't find it HN worthy. It is basically an investment manager complaining that the wealthiest Americans are mostly in finance and don't pay enough taxes because most of their earnings are from capital gains. He makes a lot of presuppositions in his writing that he never defends. For example: "I asked if her colleagues talked about or understood how much damage was…

> How does finance destroy the broader economy in general? Liquid functional capital markets are critical for a stable economy. Finance is only bad for the economy when incentives are structures so that government limits the downside.

False dichotomy. The article talks about the current financial system in the US hurting the economy. It's not suggesting dismantling the financial system in general.

Step back for a moment. The financial industry is infrastructure. It's there to grease the wheels of productive industry. It facilitates growth, but cannot in itself create that growth. Now, last year the financial industry accounted for something like 1/3 of corporate profits. It's gotten absolutely immense. Do we need such massive institutions just to create "liquid functional capital markets?" Are these companies so profitable because they're really creating enormous amounts of value for the economy, or because being close to the money makes it easier to justify taking a percentage cut of the money flowing through the system?

Now, I'm not attacking them just because they're profitable. But to an extent they're profitable because the benefit tremendously from government protection. When Apple innovates and sells iPhones, they pay 35% tax on those profits, but when a trader at Goldman moves money around to make profits, they pay less than half that in taxes. If we believe that tax rates create incentive structures, does it really make sense to incentivize the latter so much more heavily than the former?

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#38
post #31

I found this article poorly written and defended. I didn't find it HN worthy. It is basically an investment manager complaining that the wealthiest Americans are mostly in finance and don't pay enough taxes because most of their earnings are from capital gains. He makes a lot of presuppositions in his writing that he never defends. For example: "I asked if her colleagues talked about or understood how much damage was…

I found this comment rather ignorant.

If you can't see the damage that the finance industry has done to the economy over the past decade or so, then I would suggest you haven't been paying attention.

I would suggest googling the following terms: "Angelo Mozilo", "control fraud", "William K. Black"

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#39

There's a pretty simple solution: Abolish the capital gains tax, and tax all capital gains at the income tax rate. There is no more "capital gain". Only income. Whether your income was earned through labor or rents on capital that you own seems rather irrelevant to me.

Let's think about secondary effects. What percent of very wealthy Americans do you think would renounce their citizenship based on this? How much less investment capital would there be in the USA based on that? Note: Not asking for a value judgment ("good riddance if they do!" - not productive). Just your estimate as to what percent of wealthy Americans would give up their citizenship and how much less investment cap…

Renounce their citizenship to go where? Europe (which is far less friendly to the rich)? Asia (what's the point of being rich if you have to live in the developing world?) Fears of wealthy people leaving are a red-herring.

Plus, who says we have a shortage of investment capital in the US? There is a ton of money floating around from pension funds and 401k accounts, even leaving out the money held by the very wealthy. If you look at the economy today, it's absurd to say that lack of capital is the reason for the lack of top-line growth.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#40

There's a pretty simple solution: Abolish the capital gains tax, and tax all capital gains at the income tax rate. There is no more "capital gain". Only income. Whether your income was earned through labor or rents on capital that you own seems rather irrelevant to me.

Let's think about secondary effects. What percent of very wealthy Americans do you think would renounce their citizenship based on this? How much less investment capital would there be in the USA based on that? Note: Not asking for a value judgment ("good riddance if they do!" - not productive). Just your estimate as to what percent of wealthy Americans would give up their citizenship and how much less investment cap…

I'm not sure a significant portion of people will renounce their citizenship over the capital gains tax rate. We didn't have a brain drain or mass emigration when the top income tax rate was 91% either.

To make tax policy based on a fear of wealthy Americans deciding to stop being American seems ludicrous.

Similarly, I think investment capital will remain in the US because of the opportunities this country provides for investment and enterprise. You have many countries which have much lower, or even zero capital gains taxes and only the ones with talent and the ability to produce return attract and maintain significant amounts of investment capital.

The Isle of Man, Jamaica, and Mexico don't have any capital gains taxes, but are obviously not attracting the kind of capital that the US does- and for good reasons.

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