ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested • Hacker News Board

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#161

Post by ipaddr » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

warp wrote: post #16

ajay-b wrote: post #6

This is just ridiculous.. If they receive a notice to log your IP address, they should notify you first. My trust in ProtonMail is gone.

According to their statement: > Under Swiss law, it is obligatory for a user to be notified if a third party makes a request for their private data and such data is to be used in a criminal proceeding. But the timeline is unclear to me. If they notified you via e-mail, and then immediately turned on IP logging. So... you'd go and check your e-mail, learn about the third-party request, but by then it's too late as you…

They could notify the user after the username is entered to say the ip with this account is being logged are you sure you want to login?

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#162

Post by unyttigfjelltol » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #106

unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone's personal freedom or safety is at risk from their communications, said person should re-evaluate their career choices.

Like a journalist covering China from Hong Kong? Some people try to make the world a better place. Your message is personal freedoms matters more than my beliefs. That is not true for everyone. Many will turn in their own mother to save themselves others will put their lives on the line to save your mother.

That's the fair point among the objections here, re: HK, because you've identified a state actor doing arguably a wrong thing, but would such a state actor be able to satisfy Swiss law to compel the email vendor here to act?

The other objections are about whistleblowing on private parties, discrimination or in one case a corrupt petty politician/magistrate. None of them would generate a safety concern to someone protected by Swiss law.

Seriously, the folks working the privacy angle on this story need to distinguish themselves from gangsters and organized crime syndicates. One person doing the wrong thing is bad; an organization doing it is a serious public concern and everywhere and always will generate a public response.

If you substituted Substack or a public-facing communication medium I'd be more sympathetic to the outrage at an email vendor complying with Swiss law. Here, however, we're talking about discovery of the identity behind private communications of an undetermined nature in compliance with the law of a mature Western democracy. Sorry folks, you've sometimes got to work within the democratic system to achieve your goals.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#163

Post by charbonneau » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

NmAmDa wrote: post #103

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise of "we'll never log your IPs" is something that no company can hold. - Local law enforcement can force the to do so. - Locals laws can change. - Guys with guns might barge in and demand it. Mostly, you can understand that they don't _intend_ to log IPs, and aren't in the business of collecting and redistributing data. But that doesn't mean you can count on absolute and unconditional secrecy.

I think signal approach is the best. You can't be forced to turn in something you don't have.

You can be forced to collect the data.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#164

Post by simplyinfinity » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

plater wrote: post #34

Be careful when companies market themselves as Swiss or that due to them being located in Switzerland means there is some extra layer of security or privacy. Sure, it's a more stable country than many other countries in the world, but not much different from most EU countries for example. And privacy wise there is no difference. Be also aware of the fact that many companies market themselves as Swiss, but all it mean…

> their development team in Bulgaria.

I don't see them having offices in Bulgaria. However they have offices in North Macedonia.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#165

Post by janmo » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

I am no lawyer, but there are over 180 countries in the world, and there is not one that will let you open a company that don't have to log user IP addresses? I call this complete BS. Protonmail has just become one of those providers that is only about making money and is probably getting money kickbacks from law enforcement under the form of legal processing fees or even something else, who knows..., really sad...

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#166

Post by IncRnd » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

dexen wrote: post #141

jasode wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think there is a market for datacenters in open seas. The idea of having a isolated sovereign floating platform in the ocean doesn't doesn't really solve the problem of escaping the rules of national governments because it still needs network connections into those countries . Whether it's underseas fiber optic cables or bouncing signals off of satellites, the datacenter will be rendered useless if nations' citize…

>Whether it's underseas fiber optic cables or bouncing signals off of satellites, the datacenter will be rendered useless if nations' citizens get a "This site can’t be reached. [...] ERR_CONNECTION_TIMED_OUT" Not if Elon succeeds with Starlink: >>@thesheetztweetz: How does transmitting into a country without a local downlink work on the regulatory side? >@elonmusk: They can shake their fist at the sky [0] For contex…

You can't expect Elon Musk to solve your woes regarding your being under the jurisdiction of your government. Elon and his companies, sattelites, etc. are subject to regulation, despite his marketing.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#167

Post by joshuaissac » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #153

nvarsj wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find Sealand fascinating. Imagine founding an off-grid location as a data haven, and it got popular. What would happen? I can see covert operations from foreign governments happening for example, driven by copyright lobbyists. Would they then need to hire security forces or train their own armed forces? Would it eventually join global political organizations to influence and protect its position? It gets really int…

I think the Republic of Rose Island is more interesting in that respect. Sealand is in British waters, and not recognised by HMG or any other state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Rose_Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

According to that article, Rose Island was also in Italian territorial waters, and was invaded and destroyed by the Italian navy.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#168

Post by yaris » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

maxo133 wrote: post #79

ddevault wrote: post #10

ProtonMail has been fraught with problems for a long time, and it's good that serious issues are being brought to light. Their marketing is very good and critics of them have struggled to communicate to users for a while. The most important thing a serious privacy-minded service provider can do is be forthright and honest with users about the limitations of their privacy guarantees, particularly with respect to what…

Nothing stops them from deploying malicious javascript code to comply with court orders. Nothing stops them from logging user password either, then the entire mailbox contents is compromised Many good points + 1.

Well, if that matters, nothing stops _any_ email service provider from doing those things. And I would prefer a provider that at least tries to be clear about what to expect. One thing that PM failed to account for is how many people live in an imaginary world where it is possible to run a business that is stable, profitable on one hand, on the other hand fights for other people's freedom at own expense and is constantly in conflict with local authorities.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#169

Post by arpanetus » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

dsign wrote: post #22

The ProtonMail guys always said that unless they were 20 miles from the littoral, in the sea side, they had to abide by national laws. So it was bound to happen. What makes me sad is how flimsy their entire premise (not necessarily "promise") turned out to be: all it took was some minor rascal in France to hug the wrong tree (so to speak), and ProtonMail is in the open saying they can't even protect the IP address of…

Some men with guns can easily change the case of sealand.

Technology itself has to be law-prone && gun-prone.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#170

Post by dathinab » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

dsign wrote: post #22

The ProtonMail guys always said that unless they were 20 miles from the littoral, in the sea side, they had to abide by national laws. So it was bound to happen. What makes me sad is how flimsy their entire premise (not necessarily "promise") turned out to be: all it took was some minor rascal in France to hug the wrong tree (so to speak), and ProtonMail is in the open saying they can't even protect the IP address of…

> I think there is a market for datacenters in open seas

You might escape the laws constraining you, but you will also escape the laws protecting you.

So if there is a datacenter in the open seas either:

- It's operated by some government, potentially indirectly through some straw mans.

- It's undermined by some goverment using it as a honypot or similar.

- It's so small that no-one cares about it.

- It's gone.

So IMHO, realistically speaking there is no such marked, if you want to escape the law it's properly easier to do so inside of an country instead of escaping onto the sea and then trying to somehow connect internet.