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Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

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Re: Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

#371

Post by Macha »

busterarm wrote: post #355
superkuh wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a rust dev cultural problem that will go away with time and general adoption. Right now almost all people writing in rust are the bleeding edge types that use the latest backwards incompatible features without caring. Combined with these new features being added every couple of months it is almost required to use insecure rustc installation from outside your repos no matter the distro. Bash actually gets new, b…

> It is a rust dev cultural problem that will go away with time and general adoption. Right now almost all people writing in rust are the bleeding edge types that use the latest backwards incompatible features without caring. Combined with these new features being added every couple of months it is almost required to use insecure rustc installation from outside your repos no matter the distro. And yet at the same tim…

> There was a brief few weeks at the beginning of this year where pyca/cryptography had a hard dependency on a rust compiler being on the local system

To build. Not to use. Your ansible use case would be totally unaffected, as ansible can just pull the manylinux, Windows or Mac wheel from pypi [1] or the python{,3}-cryptography package from your repo[2]. The one major distro where you can't use the manylinux wheel if you decide to build yourself is Alpine, and Alpine packages a sufficiently modern Rust compiler to build the module since 3.12, released May 2020 so it's a non issue there. The last Alpine version without a sufficiently up to date Rust compiler, 3.11, goes out of support in 1.5 months.

This is not like an application depending on a specific Node or Python version, where it must be there at runtime. You can use Ansible with no rust compiler in your life.

Anyway, the current commit of python-cryptography requires Rust 1.41, from January 2020 in the latest commit. This is only two months newer than the required Python version (3.8, from October 2019) for the current commit of Ansible...

[1]: https://pypi.org/project/cryptography/#files

[2]: e.g. for the oldest supported ubuntu version https://packages.ubuntu.com/bionic/python-cryptography

Re: Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

#372

Post by beanjuice »

stiltzkin wrote: post #257
Zomatree wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan is to make DMs end to end encrypted.

Be aware people will critique if only PM are only e2e, this is what people who uses Signal and WhatsApp downplay Telegram.

Is there a group of people who use WhatsApp who care about e2e encryption and hold it as the standard? Surely its common knowledge that you cannot trust the parent company of WhatsApp, or its encryption since being broken.

Re: Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

#373

Post by iruoy »

Zomatree wrote: post #293
cassonmars wrote: post #233

Also working on a Discord alternative, albeit my project is a decentralized version — neat to see the space has traction. One thing I couldn’t quickly surmise: it looks like your services are centralized and neither servers/spaces (whatever terminology you’re using for logical groupings of communities) nor DMs have support for encryption. Do you have plans to support this? I don’t mean to ask this as a FUD spreader,…

Hi, one of the revolt developers here, we plan to have e2ee on DMs.

Are group chats going to be encrypted aswell?

Re: Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

#374

Post by Macha »

busterarm wrote: post #370
genewitch wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also rust updates fine in gentoo, as I know from compiling Firefox, but mentioning Gentoo all the time as an alternative to Ubuntu got old in 2012, hah.

Right, but the people most affected by this are most likely running RHEL or CentOS which doesn't even have a package.

EPEL does, however. Don't most RHEL/CentOS users enable this? The default CentOS repos don't even have software like nginx or Ansible, and I think it'd be hard to argue that these aren't "mature"

But also, if you're using RHEL/CentOS, haven't you implicitly signed up to _not_ running the cutting edge software? You get what the vendor will support. That's the tradeoff you have chosen by picking such a distribution.

Re: Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

#375

Post by busterarm »

Macha wrote: post #371
busterarm wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a rust dev cultural problem that will go away with time and general adoption. Right now almost all people writing in rust are the bleeding edge types that use the latest backwards incompatible features without caring. Combined with these new features being added every couple of months it is almost required to use insecure rustc installation from outside your repos no matter the distro. And yet at the same tim…

> There was a brief few weeks at the beginning of this year where pyca/cryptography had a hard dependency on a rust compiler being on the local system To build. Not to use. Your ansible use case would be totally unaffected, as ansible can just pull the manylinux, Windows or Mac wheel from pypi [1] or the python{,3}-cryptography package from your repo[2]. The one major distro where you can't use the manylinux wheel if…

At the time (back in february or so) it was to use, before a change was made to use a built version of the library. Pip did not have prebuilt wheels at first. It is just to build as you said _now_.

There were several threads started about the situation at the time and I was also affected by it.

Ultimately the problem is really the shitshow that is Python packaging, but I'm not winning that battle at work anytime soon. There aren't really great replacements for Ansible out there.

That's not the only issue, however, as switching to Rust removed support for a number of niche platforms. pyca/cryptography is also a dependency for OpenWrt which runs on a number of these now-deprecated platforms.

Re: Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

#376

Post by busterarm »

Macha wrote: post #374
busterarm wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the people most affected by this are most likely running RHEL or CentOS which doesn't even have a package.

EPEL does, however. Don't most RHEL/CentOS users enable this? The default CentOS repos don't even have software like nginx or Ansible, and I think it'd be hard to argue that these aren't "mature" But also, if you're using RHEL/CentOS, haven't you implicitly signed up to _not_ running the cutting edge software? You get what the vendor will support. That's the tradeoff you have chosen by picking such a distribution.

> haven't you implicitly signed up to _not_ running the cutting edge software

Yes, exactly. Meanwhile the Rust community, in its current fast-changing, cutting-edge state is doing its best to work itself into being a basic dependency for everything. In the name of safety.

It's psychopathic behavior.

Re: Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

#378

Post by tumult »

zorkian wrote: post #346
eschaton wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like maybe Discord actually supports third party clients? Or is there some subtlety to this that I’m missing?

Define 'supports.' It's still against the TOS -- my point is only that we don't specifically look for third party client users and we have no specific plans to do so.

Just curious -- where in the TOS are third party clients forbidden? I've read it a few times, and I'm not seeing it.

Re: Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

#379

Post by Macha »

busterarm wrote: post #376
Macha wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EPEL does, however. Don't most RHEL/CentOS users enable this? The default CentOS repos don't even have software like nginx or Ansible, and I think it'd be hard to argue that these aren't "mature" But also, if you're using RHEL/CentOS, haven't you implicitly signed up to _not_ running the cutting edge software? You get what the vendor will support. That's the tradeoff you have chosen by picking such a distribution.

> haven't you implicitly signed up to _not_ running the cutting edge software Yes, exactly. Meanwhile the Rust community, in its current fast-changing, cutting-edge state is doing its best to work itself into being a basic dependency for everything. In the name of safety. It's psychopathic behavior.

> Yes, exactly. Meanwhile the Rust community, in its current fast-changing, cutting-edge state is doing its best to work itself into being a basic dependency for everything. In the name of safety.

I don't understand your complaint here. It feels like you want to have your cake and eat it. You want nobody else to use anything too new to be packaged in enterprise Linux repositories, yet you want freedom to use the latest versions of these software, despite having perfectly usable versions for your era of software packaged in that enterprise distro.

Rust is now an indirect dependency of ansible and you need to go outside the RHEL supported process to build the latest commit of ansible (or Firefox, or linkerd, or whatever) on your RHEL/CentOS 7 system. Or you could just use the RHEL supported version of ansible.

The current RHEL version (RHEL 8) even has Rust packages, in the same repository and level of trust as such famously cutting edge software as nginx, node and dotnet.

Re: Revolt: Open-source alternative to Discord

#380

Post by busterarm »

Macha wrote: post #379
busterarm wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> haven't you implicitly signed up to _not_ running the cutting edge software Yes, exactly. Meanwhile the Rust community, in its current fast-changing, cutting-edge state is doing its best to work itself into being a basic dependency for everything. In the name of safety. It's psychopathic behavior.

> Yes, exactly. Meanwhile the Rust community, in its current fast-changing, cutting-edge state is doing its best to work itself into being a basic dependency for everything. In the name of safety. I don't understand your complaint here. It feels like you want to have your cake and eat it. You want nobody else to use anything too new to be packaged in enterprise Linux repositories, yet you want freedom to use the late…

Take a survey of how many companies are or will ever be on RHEL 8...Most likely only the ones that have 100% of their infrastructure on RHEL and nothing else. A rare few, even in finance these days.

I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it to, I'm asking for package maintainers to use their fucking brains. pyca/cryptography only runs on Rust 1.41 now after efforts that were made to downgrade to a more stable/available/packaged Rust version.

And on the Rust community/leadership, urging everyone to use the bleeding new (curl rustup | sh) instead of stable packages is herding a bunch of lemmings who really should know better, professionally speaking, into building a world that is less maintainable than when they started.

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