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Plans for a new city in the American desert

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Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#151

Post by dragonwriter »

kiba wrote: post #19
pcurve wrote: post #8

"The cleanliness of Tokyo, the diversity of New York and the social services of Stockholm: Billionaire Marc Lore has outlined his vision for a 5-million-person "new city in America" and appointed a world-famous architect to design it" "The mission of Telosa is to create a more equitable and sustainable future. That's our North Star." I admire their ambition, but they are underestimating people's preference for inequi…

What would it take for the middle class homeowners of America to prioritize housing for everyone rather than the price of their home?

> What would it take for the middle class homeowners of America to prioritize housing for everyone rather than the price of their home?

Radically rewiring human nature.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#152

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #132
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of that cheap land you are seeing available in the US is not close to what you'd consider farmland. Consider the location of the 100th meridian as it somewhat bisects the continent. West of that line, you cannot really grow anything without irrigation. East of that line, and to some extent there's enough rainfall that stuff will grow on its own, albeit not optimally. Most the cheap available land you will find i…

This. The western half of the US is going to become useless for farming in the next 50 years because all the aquifers are drying up and they take tens of thousands of years to recharge. Which is another way of saying that farming in the western US has only been possible because it harvested fossil water that's now almost gone.

This is not quite true. Most western US (well, say CA central valley back to the plains) agriculture has been made possible by large scale irrigation systems backed by the construction of substantial reservoirs. From time to time, it has been necessary to pull from groundwater, and from time to time, some farmers have done so even when it wasn't necessary. But in general, most of the agricultural expansion has been based on collected rainwater, distributed via huge systems. This system has worked "well" as long as the snow and the rain has kept coming (and flowing, rather than being absorbed into warm-weather baked soil). But the rain & snow are not making it into the rivers and reservoirs, and so this system has serious problems now.

By contrast, plains and some midwestern ag. has been drawing down the Ogallala aquifer at an insane rate, and that really is "fossil water".

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#153

Post by leetcrew »

ginko wrote: post #24
Bayart wrote: post #11

I feel every attempt at community-by-design bears within it the seed of inhumane horror. Forget about the energy equation of building a city in a desert, what's the on-boarding process for prospective inhabitants ? Putting the price of accommodation sky-high to make sure everybody's in the right tax-bracket (or even earns enough to not pay taxes) ? Going through an interview process to only take in people with the "r…

What's more did any of these planned communities ever pan out? There were plenty projects started in the 20th century alone. Guess Walt Disney's Epcot is the most well known failure.

depends what you mean by "pan out". columbia, md [0] is a fairly successful planned community. I personally wouldn't want to live there, but it's a fine place to live if you enjoy life in the suburbs.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia,_Maryland

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#154

Post by IncRnd »

jeffwass wrote: post #143
ginko wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more did any of these planned communities ever pan out? There were plenty projects started in the 20th century alone. Guess Walt Disney's Epcot is the most well known failure.

Savannah, Georgia is a pretty city, based on the Oglethorpe Plan back in 1733. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oglethorpe_Plan

Looking at https://www.travelsafe-abroad.com/united-states/savannah/

  So... How Safe Is Savannah Really?
  Savannah is a reasonably unsafe city.
  The crime index ranges from medium to high.
  The main problems here are robberies and assaults, car theft and theft, vandalism, violent crime, and drug problems.
  Nevertheless, the historic Savannah district is entirely safe for exploring the area day and night.
  Better to be in a company than one.
  Outside the historical site, district crime is more common.
  When studying a historical area, remember that this is a tourist area, and there will always be those who hunt tourists – be careful, but especially at night.
  One still needs to follow the dictates of common sense to avoid being victimized.
  Don’t walk around alone at night, particularly in unfamiliar neighborhoods.
  Lock vehicles and keep valuables out of sight.
  For cars, perhaps you need to be especially careful – the number of car thefts and hacks is enormous.
  Be sure to close the car and park in a guarded parking lot to avoid problems.
  Never leave anything in the car, not even trinkets.
  Do not get involved in any relationship with drug dealers; drugs are illegal here. Nevertheless, there are many who wish to offer or sell them to you.
  Keep an eye on your drink at the bar – there have been times when strangers added opiates to rob a victim.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#155

Post by leetcrew »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #131
mindvirus wrote: post #4

I love the ambition. One thing I've been really amazed about China has been the willingness to tackle big infrastructure projects - building cities like Shenzhen in a few decades and all of the infrastructure projects in the Pearl River Delta in general. I think we need more of that in the west. So I wish them luck - I hope real estate speculation doesn't ruin it. One thing I've noticed with US politics is that thing…

I have a coworker who cries about everything the government spends money on because it doesn't directly put cash in his pocket. How do you explain that things like this are still beneficial to him? That a rising tide lifts all boats?

in this particular example (NYC subway), it is kinda hard to understand how that benefits people outside of the NYC metro area. I live in a much more distressed mid-atlantic city, and NYC already has one of the best public transit systems in the country. why would I be happy about my federal tax dollars subsidizing transit in one of the wealthiest US cities while my local public transit is barely off the ground?

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#156

Post by hinoki »

myrandomcomment wrote: post #147

The cleanliness of Tokyo is 100% because of cultural issues, not because the government did anything special. Durning the major 2011 earthquake everything shutdown and you had to walk home. When you went into the “Konbini” (7/11, FamilyMart, Lawsons) in Tokyo there was always a bottle of water left. Why? Because culturally no Japanese would ever buy the last bottle.

This has limits. During coronavirus, people have absolutely no problem buying the last package of masks.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#157

Post by myrandomcomment »

dragonwriter wrote: post #150
myrandomcomment wrote: post #147

The cleanliness of Tokyo is 100% because of cultural issues, not because the government did anything special. Durning the major 2011 earthquake everything shutdown and you had to walk home. When you went into the “Konbini” (7/11, FamilyMart, Lawsons) in Tokyo there was always a bottle of water left. Why? Because culturally no Japanese would ever buy the last bottle.

> The cleanliness of Tokyo is 100% because of cultural issues, not because the government did anything special Social disapproval over time, including that expressed through government policy, has effect on culture. So, while it may not result particularly from the government doing something immediate to cause the cleanliness, I would be hesitant to assert it is independent of government action merely because it is c…

Government policy reflects the culture. I have spent 30% of the last 20 years of my life in Japan, on and off again. One of the highest compliments paid to me by a group of Japanese friends was, “you must not do X again, you are Japanese and know better now.” I.E. as a foreigner I would get a pass, but my understanding of the culture reached a point where they expected better. I was both very highly embarrassed and also quite flattered. It is an amazingly nuanced civilization, sometimes unfortunately to the detriment of progress and equality.

It is not clear to me that shame as a function of policy works in the USA.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#158

Post by myrandomcomment »

hinoki wrote: post #156
myrandomcomment wrote: post #147

The cleanliness of Tokyo is 100% because of cultural issues, not because the government did anything special. Durning the major 2011 earthquake everything shutdown and you had to walk home. When you went into the “Konbini” (7/11, FamilyMart, Lawsons) in Tokyo there was always a bottle of water left. Why? Because culturally no Japanese would ever buy the last bottle.

This has limits. During coronavirus, people have absolutely no problem buying the last package of masks.

So I have not seen that, but I am not there right now. I know my friends view on the government failures in rolling out the vaccines are … Shikata ga nai (仕方がない), no matter how privately they rage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikata_ga_nai

As a westerner I am not sure I could have stood by and put up with the hosting of the Olympics.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#159

Post by zz865 »

wolfretcrap wrote: post #29
mindvirus wrote: post #4

I love the ambition. One thing I've been really amazed about China has been the willingness to tackle big infrastructure projects - building cities like Shenzhen in a few decades and all of the infrastructure projects in the Pearl River Delta in general. I think we need more of that in the west. So I wish them luck - I hope real estate speculation doesn't ruin it. One thing I've noticed with US politics is that thing…

It's mind blowing how much land the US has. I live in India and here finding farmland is not easy to say least, while I see lot of cheap land available in the US all time with much more facilities than a small city in India would have. I've always wondered why America has not built many more cities with all that available land.

There are already lots of cities with declining populations and lots of empty houses. We dont need new cities.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#160

Post by nicoburns »

swiley wrote: post #122
jdavis703 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice I don’t think this works for an green field city. Filtering takes decades to occur. In the meantime new housing will always be more expensive than a low-income worker can afford. If the city wants service workers they’re going to have to subsidize their initial housing.

One alternative is to pay workers enough to afford housing. It’s surprising how rarely people mention that idea. It’s very likely thee d of “worker+housing shortage” which is just a very roundabout way to say “massive inflation.”

Probably becayse the inflation has been disproportionately in housing only. Less true now since covid of course, but housing is still a separate problem to be dealt with.
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