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Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

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Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#51

Post by syops »

TameAntelope wrote: post #47
DangitBobby wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm sure almost everyone can learn the basics of algebra or calculus, no amount of wishful thinking will give everyone the brain needed to master them or even be proficient. I'm not sure where your belief that perseverance can overcome all even comes from. I have been trying to get better at chess lately. I grew up playing it so I'm already fairly proficient, and I've been putting a decent amount of free time i…

I disagree, as it's not a sufficiently difficult topic to warrant some kind of genetic stratification. Life circumstance stratification, certainly, and you will get no disagreement from me that some people don't have the time or energy necessary to devote to something as not-immediately-useful as calculus, but from an intellect perspective, no. Everyone who is not experiencing some kind of mental illness has the inte…

It’s not a sufficiently difficult topic for you. Have you ever taught algebra to a classroom of people from a wide range of intellectual capabilities and experiences? Are you even aware of some of the pain points to learning algebra?

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#52

Post by threatofrain »

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

IMO, biological differences and barriers certainly exist and are non-trivial, but the differences between private and public schools demonstrates the degree to which institutional finesse can accommodate student strengths and shortcomings, including differences in intelligence or disability. In other words, we have a long way to go.

In some schools around the Bay Area, we have half the students on the fastest track, and about half the math faculty as calculus teachers. An immodest minority of students complete Calculus BC early and go on to the local college to continue their math education for their remaining years in HS. And these aren't even the top 50 schools in the nation.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#54

Post by wutbrodo »

mynameishere wrote: post #44

It's always weird to watch people on the left argue about things that are eye-rollingly obvious. But it's true: If progressives get it into their collective heads that genetics are a huge factor in economic, social, and psychological outcomes, eugenics will be right there on the table (again). While conservatives might use this knowledge to stop welfare, progressives will be self-righteously sterilizing people (again…

Many (most?) people value conformity and loyalty oaths over honest understanding of the world, regardless of the damage that this does. What you're describing isn't any weirder than Biblical literalists ignoring "eye-rollingly obvious" self-contradictions in scripture.

In both cases, the complaint is missing the point: some subset of progressives and some subset of other religious extremists aren't even having the same conversation you are.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#55

Post by TameAntelope »

syops wrote: post #48
TameAntelope wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't think this article in any way supports your belief that some people can't learn algebra/calculus due to any kind of genetic traits, because I don't think the complexity of either rises to the level of "difficulty" that only gifted minds can comprehend. Very, very little in this world does. Your belief should probably be considered heretical, even among your conservative colleagues, because your colle…

My belief comes my experience teaching math the past 20 years. I think we both agree that mentally disabled people can’t learn algebra. Do you have any evidence that these are the only people incapable of learning algebra? I have lots of anecdotal evidence that the set of people who can’t learn algebra is much larger than the set of mentally disabled people.

Do I require evidence to not believe something you've stated? Or do you require evidence to assert something you've stated?

I don't think the onus is on me to prove you wrong, so much as the onus is on you to prove that your experience is scientifically rigorous and representative of more than just your personal experience.

And to be clear, I don't doubt that many people "can't" learn calculus in the same way I "can't" run a marathon; we don't have the desire, discipline, and free time necessary to do the work required. This does not speak in any way towards our capacities to do so, only our desire.

So I suspect the vast majority of your students didn't have the sufficient desire to learn a lot more than they were incapable, and I think it's a critical distinction, because you can change people's motivations, but you cannot change their capacity.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#56

Post by syops »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #10
syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

I like to feel the same way as your colleagues about "everyone can learn to code". I can definitely say that there are many people for whom it is a struggle - even those on college courses. But a hundred years ago we could easily have the same conversation about simply reading and writing - they (the poor, women, or "lower class" ) luke not be taught to read. But it turns out that if you start young enough, and put e…

I can accept your belief, in principle, about putting enough effort in early education and that lack of such efforts contributes to poor outcomes in college. I also think though that some people just can’t grok algebra. You would agree that a mentally disabled person can’t learn algebra, right? So where is the line below which a person can’t learn algebra. I suspect it is much higher than being mentally disabled.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#57

Post by TameAntelope »

syops wrote: post #51
TameAntelope wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, as it's not a sufficiently difficult topic to warrant some kind of genetic stratification. Life circumstance stratification, certainly, and you will get no disagreement from me that some people don't have the time or energy necessary to devote to something as not-immediately-useful as calculus, but from an intellect perspective, no. Everyone who is not experiencing some kind of mental illness has the inte…

It’s not a sufficiently difficult topic for you. Have you ever taught algebra to a classroom of people from a wide range of intellectual capabilities and experiences? Are you even aware of some of the pain points to learning algebra?

Do I need experience teaching calculus in order to suggest that it's got more to do with environment and situation than it does intellectual capability? No, I don't think that's true.

Are you seriously suggesting trying to raise multiple children while simultaneously learning calculus is approximately as hard as living alone and trying to learn calculus?

Honestly, I think you're trying to find a neat solution where none exists. You haven't stumbled on anything here, you're more likely ignoring the real-life circumstances your students find themselves in, and your colleagues are not.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#58

Post by crispyambulance »

shashwatak wrote: post #5
syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

perhaps some people cannot learn algebra / calculus the way it is traditionally taught in the classroom. perhaps the students who are failing just need a different environment, more time, more patience, different resources?

From my point of view it seems that the US educational system clutters their curriculum with too much unnecessary cruft.

Students need to focus on the basics and no where is this more true than in mathematics. Too many students muddle through middle and high school mathematics without gaining mastery or with multiple gaps in their knowledge. By the time they get to calculus they're simply unprepared to put all their previous knowledge to use. "Calc 101" is the first time that many students are required to apply theorems and then use algebra, trigonometry and arithmetic to arrive at results to problems. If there's any weaknesses in their fundamentals it's going to make the problems intractable (and, yes, they are for many students).

It's better to track students and only advance them to the next level in math when they've demonstrated mastery of previous topics. That would mean, of course, that a good fraction of students would never "reach" calculus (or even algebra)-- but that's OK if it means they have enough numeracy to balance a ledger or learn avoid blowing money on the lotto. At least their time would not be wasted on trying to do "Business Calculus" in college.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#59

Post by mrob »

sjwalter wrote: post #37
seba_dos1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or even more likely the environment fails to accommodate for people being different.

Yes, different environments exclude and include some people, those who may be on the border of capability seem likeliest to be impacted here. That still doesn't mean that ALL people can learn calculus, given enough attempts to find the right environment for each of them. Shows, also, the silliness of this argument. Some people can pick up calc at age 10 no sweat whatsoever. Others struggle mightily with the basics in…

>Should we as a society invest 1000x the resources in the strugglers to ensure they can achieve the same understanding?

There's no need for everybody to reach the same level of understanding, but I think the pandemic has shown the importance of teaching as many as possible the basic concepts of calculus. "Flatten the curve" doesn't mean much when you've never heard of integration. The same applies to climate change. People will have more faith in mathematical models if they think it's something they could have done themselves if they really wanted to (overly optimistic judgement or not) instead of some bullshit the so-called experts made up to bamboozle them.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#60

Post by syops »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #13
syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

> Years of administration telling the math department that our passing rate is too low have led me to pretty much pass everyone who takes the final exam. Last semester 80% passed but only around 50% deserved to Doesn't this contribute to lower the reputation of the universities? I mean, I did sociology in a small university in northern Spain and there was debate between the stats and methodology professors and pretty…

Yes, this has long term negative effects but I need a job and don’t need the stress of being hounded by administration. In the old days the state funded a much higher percent of a student’s higher education. In those days, society was the client. Today the student is the client and the student does not want to fail.
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