Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#41

Post by Ekaros » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:40 PM UTC

creato wrote: post #19

shashwatak wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perhaps some people cannot learn algebra / calculus the way it is traditionally taught in the classroom. perhaps the students who are failing just need a different environment, more time, more patience, different resources?

If resources are limited, this might be equivalent to saying that some students can't be taught, at scale at least.

Recently I read things about our school system in tabloid. Wholly unscientific, but popular anyway. The result is that trying to teach these students in regular environments might negatively effect everyone and specially those who are borderline. That is there is a group who need extra support and inside regular lecture could learn, but can't as groups needing even more support take resources.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#42

Post by tsywke44 » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:40 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #10

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

I like to feel the same way as your colleagues about "everyone can learn to code". I can definitely say that there are many people for whom it is a struggle - even those on college courses. But a hundred years ago we could easily have the same conversation about simply reading and writing - they (the poor, women, or "lower class" ) luke not be taught to read. But it turns out that if you start young enough, and put e…

Kids are savant at learning ”muscle memory skills”.

But there is a reason 2nd graders dont do book reviews of classic literature. Even though they can absolutely read the complex words out loud on autopilot any day of the week.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#43

Post by DangitBobby » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #29

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

I hope you don't think this article in any way supports your belief that some people can't learn algebra/calculus due to any kind of genetic traits, because I don't think the complexity of either rises to the level of "difficulty" that only gifted minds can comprehend. Very, very little in this world does. Your belief should probably be considered heretical, even among your conservative colleagues, because your colle…

While I'm sure almost everyone can learn the basics of algebra or calculus, no amount of wishful thinking will give everyone the brain needed to master them or even be proficient. I'm not sure where your belief that perseverance can overcome all even comes from.

I have been trying to get better at chess lately. I grew up playing it so I'm already fairly proficient, and I've been putting a decent amount of free time into studying openings and playing puzzles. Yesterday, I played my friend who hasn't played in literally years and never really played seriously anyway, and he beat me handily 3/3 games. I know that I do not have the brain to be a chess master, no matter how much time I put in, because I don't have enough working memory to keep the board in my head.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#44

Post by mynameishere » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

It's always weird to watch people on the left argue about things that are eye-rollingly obvious.

But it's true: If progressives get it into their collective heads that genetics are a huge factor in economic, social, and psychological outcomes, eugenics will be right there on the table (again). While conservatives might use this knowledge to stop welfare, progressives will be self-righteously sterilizing people (again). So, the danger is real.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#45

Post by caconym_ » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

Imagine (semi-publicly) telling a colleague that their field is broadly (morally, by implication) comparable to Holocaust denialism. What an absolute ass. In a sensible world, anybody bringing that kind of attitude into the scientific community would be treated like the social equivalent of a barrel of toxic waste until they learn to act like an adult (in the intellectual sense).

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#46

Post by jessaustin » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

robbedpeter wrote: post #15

basementcat wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of the difficulty is due to large class size. If the student to teacher ratio were smaller, would teachers be better able to tailor instruction to struggling students?

Most teachers would struggle with algebra II.

My high school had one teacher capable of teaching calculus. His seniority allowed him to fob it off on someone who could not. She left the profession entirely a few years after I graduated.

Of course, one may learn calculus from a book, which was what many of us did in that class.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#47

Post by TameAntelope » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

DangitBobby wrote: post #43

TameAntelope wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't think this article in any way supports your belief that some people can't learn algebra/calculus due to any kind of genetic traits, because I don't think the complexity of either rises to the level of "difficulty" that only gifted minds can comprehend. Very, very little in this world does. Your belief should probably be considered heretical, even among your conservative colleagues, because your colle…

While I'm sure almost everyone can learn the basics of algebra or calculus, no amount of wishful thinking will give everyone the brain needed to master them or even be proficient. I'm not sure where your belief that perseverance can overcome all even comes from. I have been trying to get better at chess lately. I grew up playing it so I'm already fairly proficient, and I've been putting a decent amount of free time i…

I disagree, as it's not a sufficiently difficult topic to warrant some kind of genetic stratification.

Life circumstance stratification, certainly, and you will get no disagreement from me that some people don't have the time or energy necessary to devote to something as not-immediately-useful as calculus, but from an intellect perspective, no.

Everyone who is not experiencing some kind of mental illness has the intellectual capacity to learn calculus, though I will capitulate it is fortunate for me and this statement that we do classify a low enough IQ as a mental illness!

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#48

Post by syops » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #29

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

I hope you don't think this article in any way supports your belief that some people can't learn algebra/calculus due to any kind of genetic traits, because I don't think the complexity of either rises to the level of "difficulty" that only gifted minds can comprehend. Very, very little in this world does. Your belief should probably be considered heretical, even among your conservative colleagues, because your colle…

My belief comes my experience teaching math the past 20 years. I think we both agree that mentally disabled people can’t learn algebra. Do you have any evidence that these are the only people incapable of learning algebra? I have lots of anecdotal evidence that the set of people who can’t learn algebra is much larger than the set of mentally disabled people.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#49

Post by goatlover » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #23

This feels like the “nature versus nurture” false dichotomy all over again. Even the tagline tries to frame the debate as a false dichotomy of two extremist positions: > The behavior geneticist Kathryn Paige Harden is waging a two-front campaign: on her left are those who assume that genes are irrelevant, on her right those who insist that they’re everything. Most reasonable people know that human beings are the prod…

Well, in the past we've had eugenics, sterilizations and discrimination based on IQ tests, which is going to the other extreme with genetics. So it's not just something irrelevant. Doesn't mean we should ignore the influence of genetics just because of past wrongs, or because we wish the world to be more egalitarian.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#50

Post by chuckee » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

shashwatak wrote: post #5

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

perhaps some people cannot learn algebra / calculus the way it is traditionally taught in the classroom. perhaps the students who are failing just need a different environment, more time, more patience, different resources?

That's not really rebutting the original claim, is it? If, due to genetics, they need a different environment, resources, more time and patience.. how is that not agreeing with the premise that genetics matter?