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Plans for a new city in the American desert

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Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#31

Post by throwawaysea »

mindvirus wrote: post #4

I love the ambition. One thing I've been really amazed about China has been the willingness to tackle big infrastructure projects - building cities like Shenzhen in a few decades and all of the infrastructure projects in the Pearl River Delta in general. I think we need more of that in the west. So I wish them luck - I hope real estate speculation doesn't ruin it. One thing I've noticed with US politics is that thing…

I think with NYC it is the mismanaged part more so than underfunded. Limiting cities (and people) by having them live within their means forces better management. When that doesn’t work I feel the solution isn’t to pump more money in but rather to seek out alternatives. The market does that automatically - people will choose to live elsewhere to avoid ever higher local and state taxes, or to avoid an inadequate subway system. The country addresses the problem by decentralizing away from NYC, in your example. Of course in reality it doesn’t quite play out in a perfect idealistic way. The alternative is that the nation pump money in but also control NYC. Shenzhen may be a partially planned city but it isn’t also independent in the way American cities are.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#32

Post by kiba »

wolfretcrap wrote: post #29
mindvirus wrote: post #4

I love the ambition. One thing I've been really amazed about China has been the willingness to tackle big infrastructure projects - building cities like Shenzhen in a few decades and all of the infrastructure projects in the Pearl River Delta in general. I think we need more of that in the west. So I wish them luck - I hope real estate speculation doesn't ruin it. One thing I've noticed with US politics is that thing…

It's mind blowing how much land the US has. I live in India and here finding farmland is not easy to say least, while I see lot of cheap land available in the US all time with much more facilities than a small city in India would have. I've always wondered why America has not built many more cities with all that available land.

Our problem is more about in-fill development then taking up land. Why would we want to make more cities? Better preserves the wilderness.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#33

Post by kitsunesoba »

zenonu wrote: post #6
webmobdev wrote: post #2

There are already so many dying or dead towns / cities in the US that building a new city in a desert sounds like thoughtless, careless waste (not to mention the ecological disaster of displacing / destroying the ecosystem of the desert). When there are so many habitable locations, why build a city in an inhospitable environment - so much energy resource is going to be wasted to make it habitable ... - https://en.wik…

This new city most likely depends on getting necessary regulatory and code approvals that would be impossible elsewhere. There's also a reason why towns become ghost towns, and the investors putting in $400B in funding probably don't want to start with one foot in the metaphorical grave.

To me the set of issues that come with building up a pre-existing city/town are similar to those faced by companies and municipalities looking to lay fiberoptic cable for internet service: endless political hurdles and obstructionism coming from the numerous groups and individuals involved, slowing development to a crawl or stopping it altogether.

It's no wonder why this project is pursuing a "clean slate" approach.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#34

Post by catillac »

kiba wrote: post #19
pcurve wrote: post #8

"The cleanliness of Tokyo, the diversity of New York and the social services of Stockholm: Billionaire Marc Lore has outlined his vision for a 5-million-person "new city in America" and appointed a world-famous architect to design it" "The mission of Telosa is to create a more equitable and sustainable future. That's our North Star." I admire their ambition, but they are underestimating people's preference for inequi…

What would it take for the middle class homeowners of America to prioritize housing for everyone rather than the price of their home?

Framed like that it’s hard to imagine choosing one or the other and the answer might be intractable. A more interesting question might be: What would it take to align policies around housing for everyone with policies around increasing the prices of homes such that the two things are strongly positively correlated?

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#35

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

I'm very curious, have there ever been any "cities from the ground up" projects that don't turn out to be total shit that end up just reflecting the urban planning fallacies of the day? (Looking at you, Brasilia)

I mean, all of the cities that are most "livable" in my mind are old cities that were designed before the car and thus have enough density and public transportation to make things both close and also the kind of place where it's fun to just walk around.

These "master planned cities" always end up like houses that are designed with all these pretty rooms that nobody actually uses.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#36

Post by nine_zeros »

wolfretcrap wrote: post #29
mindvirus wrote: post #4

I love the ambition. One thing I've been really amazed about China has been the willingness to tackle big infrastructure projects - building cities like Shenzhen in a few decades and all of the infrastructure projects in the Pearl River Delta in general. I think we need more of that in the west. So I wish them luck - I hope real estate speculation doesn't ruin it. One thing I've noticed with US politics is that thing…

It's mind blowing how much land the US has. I live in India and here finding farmland is not easy to say least, while I see lot of cheap land available in the US all time with much more facilities than a small city in India would have. I've always wondered why America has not built many more cities with all that available land.

The path to building a city involves first building a small town with some kind of economic activity. Because of a lack of people (especially young people), it's hard to create a brand new city with a vibrant economy. Most of the existing young people in America move to existing big cities. Small cities are becoming bigger.

This is unlike China where cities were built en masse to house migrants from rural areas. America just doesn't have the same volume of workers.

America is still pretty empty.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#37

Post by kiba »

lprubin wrote: post #21
Bayart wrote: post #11

I feel every attempt at community-by-design bears within it the seed of inhumane horror. Forget about the energy equation of building a city in a desert, what's the on-boarding process for prospective inhabitants ? Putting the price of accommodation sky-high to make sure everybody's in the right tax-bracket (or even earns enough to not pay taxes) ? Going through an interview process to only take in people with the "r…

One idea is an expansion of a law already on the books in many cities. When you create a new building / housing complex (which will be 100% in a new city), you require X% of units to be "affordable housing". I could see the city just increasing the required % and then giving tax credits to developers to offset the lost revenue to them. Given that this city would be built in stages, it will give them time to hone in o…

I don't think this work as this is just rent controlled housing. Better to cut the unnecessary red tape and let developers build more housing.

Also, I think penalizing vacant properties would also be a good idea.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#38

Post by adventured »

You can't have the cleaniless of Tokyo in a US city unless you're willing to harshly punish people - Singapore style - for transgressions. That won't stand up legally in terms of civil rights. You have to entirely remake the culture to get that outcome, and that's not going to happen. Urban US culture is largely mediocre. The last thing the US needs is another Las Vegas, building another major US city in the desert is moronic.

In general the US does not need more cities. The US can't operate its existing cities properly. It's embarrassing how disgusting and violent most US cities are. Culturally the US should figure out how to run the cities it has before building new ones. To say nothing of the fact that the US has no need of new mega cities from a practical standpoint, we're facing population decline or stagnation, not a population boom.

Cities are cultural extensions of the nations they reside in, along with regional influences. It's highly predictable what you'll get out of another city built in the US. Let's focus $400 billion on public transportation improvements for our existing cities, including rail and a lot more electric buses.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#39

Post by lprubin »

kiba wrote: post #37
lprubin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One idea is an expansion of a law already on the books in many cities. When you create a new building / housing complex (which will be 100% in a new city), you require X% of units to be "affordable housing". I could see the city just increasing the required % and then giving tax credits to developers to offset the lost revenue to them. Given that this city would be built in stages, it will give them time to hone in o…

I don't think this work as this is just rent controlled housing. Better to cut the unnecessary red tape and let developers build more housing. Also, I think penalizing vacant properties would also be a good idea.

I'm curious to hear why you think it doesn't work. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just would like to know more.

Re: Plans for a new city in the American desert

#40

Post by sokoloff »

catillac wrote: post #34
kiba wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would it take for the middle class homeowners of America to prioritize housing for everyone rather than the price of their home?

Framed like that it’s hard to imagine choosing one or the other and the answer might be intractable. A more interesting question might be: What would it take to align policies around housing for everyone with policies around increasing the prices of homes such that the two things are strongly positively correlated?

Housing cannot simultaneously remain affordable and “be a good investment” (meaning increase at a rate faster than general inflation).
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