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Why can’t we mandate anything? Global resurgence of patrimonial rule

thehill.com

11–18 of 18 posts

Re: Why can’t we mandate anything? Global resurgence of patrimonial rule

#11

While I appreciate this article and find it interesting, I'd be remiss not to point out that even 100 years ago, there were people who rebelled against the rules of law and rational, reasonable public health measure and the science around it. See the anti mask league of San Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mask_League_of_San_Franci... I don't know if the distrust for the idea of bureaucratic expertise is…

The article doesn't claim that distrust is recent. It claims the opposite.

It claims that people historically have seen strongmen as the "legitimate" authority. As a corollary, authority from anything other than strongmen was illegitimate.

We've managed to get many people to believe in systems and organizations instead of strongmen. But for various reasons, we've recently regressed.

Re: Why can’t we mandate anything? Global resurgence of patrimonial rule

#12
post #2

"argh everything is so broken. I wish someone would come in and just fix this mess" Is a sentiment that I see the appeal of. But I've been listening to Mike Duncan's Revolutions podcast, and that's not really how it goes. Shifts in power tend to have a ton of unintended side-effects, and even most of the primary effects end up being unintended ones, for better sometimes but also for worse. I think it's easy forget ju…

It sounds like you're arguing against the article. But the article agrees with you completely.

Re: Why can’t we mandate anything? Global resurgence of patrimonial rule

#13

While I appreciate this article and find it interesting, I'd be remiss not to point out that even 100 years ago, there were people who rebelled against the rules of law and rational, reasonable public health measure and the science around it. See the anti mask league of San Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mask_League_of_San_Franci... I don't know if the distrust for the idea of bureaucratic expertise is…

The article doesn't claim that distrust is recent. It claims the opposite. It claims that people historically have seen strongmen as the "legitimate" authority. As a corollary, authority from anything other than strongmen was illegitimate. We've managed to get many people to believe in systems and organizations instead of strongmen. But for various reasons, we've recently regressed.

Yes but they claim that the rise of bureaucracy and legitimate authority corresponds to the rise of the modern state, so I might be mistaken but it seemed to me that the intent was to contrast to earlier times than the 20th century?

Re: Why can’t we mandate anything? Global resurgence of patrimonial rule

#14
post #10

TDLR; Dude funded by Monarchy spruiks civilization is crumbling at the hands of the Aristocrats. >Stephen E. Hanson is vice provost for academic and >international affairs at the >>>> College of William & Mary, Capitalism has been making the earth sick for years. Its quest for profits and growth ultimately leads to an imbalance and sickness. The public purse has, and always will, fund the winners, whipe there debts a…

>Capitalism has been making the earth sick for years. Its quest for profits and growth ultimately leads to an imbalance and sickness. The public purse has, and always will, fund the winners, whipe there debts and bail them out.

There is a kernel of truth to the fact that if an industry ignores everything except for short terms gains made every quarter, yes, you will end up with overtaxed oceans, polluted rivers, and smoggy skies. In that you are right, that unscrupulous mega corporations can exploit critical natural resources to the point of destruction. But considering the only meaningful rival to the capitalist system created the absurd ecological disaster that is the Aral Sea, I think there is more to the nature of the problem than 'capitalism bad.'

Re: Why can’t we mandate anything? Global resurgence of patrimonial rule

#15
Is it the bureaucracy that we have a problem with? To me it seems to be more related to dichotomy between safety and freedom.

While an argument can be made from both a scientific and public health perspective that alcohol is bad, that doesn't necessarily mean a government should therefore force people to make the "right" decision about their health. People who are in favour of the legality of alcohol are not anti-science or against bureaucracy, they're just people who value freedom over public health in this specific instance.

We're living in a strange time at the moment where we claim to value democracy, yet we simultaneously don't believe the public are informed enough to have any opinion about much of anything. I saw this start around the time of Brexit when people were getting annoyed that the government decided to listen to the opinion of the public rather than just doing whatever economists advised them to do. Today with COVID we see this more than ever, but at least in the UK there has been a steady trend towards our elected officials just deferring to unelected and often untrusted experts instead of representing the views of their electorate. While I think it's important we have public experts offering their thoughts on complicated decisions, I also think in a democracy we should embrace our liberty to reject the opinions of those experts for whatever reason.

We have to acknowledge there is no expert arguing on the side of freedom despite the fact many of us quite strongly value being free.

Re: Why can’t we mandate anything? Global resurgence of patrimonial rule

#16
post #15

Is it the bureaucracy that we have a problem with? To me it seems to be more related to dichotomy between safety and freedom. While an argument can be made from both a scientific and public health perspective that alcohol is bad, that doesn't necessarily mean a government should therefore force people to make the "right" decision about their health. People who are in favour of the legality of alcohol are not anti-sci…

Yep, when we defer to the public instead of experts to make decisions, we get Brexit. The devastation of a country. I don't think your example is bolstering what you think it's bolstering.

Re: Why can’t we mandate anything? Global resurgence of patrimonial rule

#17
post #15

Is it the bureaucracy that we have a problem with? To me it seems to be more related to dichotomy between safety and freedom. While an argument can be made from both a scientific and public health perspective that alcohol is bad, that doesn't necessarily mean a government should therefore force people to make the "right" decision about their health. People who are in favour of the legality of alcohol are not anti-sci…

Yep, when we defer to the public instead of experts to make decisions, we get Brexit. The devastation of a country. I don't think your example is bolstering what you think it's bolstering.

> The devastation of a country.

Don't you think it's odd you have such a strong opinion on Brexit? Anyone who believes Brexit is an obvious disaster isn't paying attention or is extremely disconnected. It's not like it was a simple obvious decision so your confidence is fascinating to me. There are obvious pro and cons depending on largely on your class and immigration status.

My dad just got a pay rise thanks for shortages it HGV drivers, he isn't complaining. As someone who's moved up into the upper-middle class it means I don't have the liberty to work in other peoples' countries without their permission anymore, but I guess the fact that bothers me just exposes how privileged I am. Most people in my family can't even afford to go aboard on holiday.

Are there any political unions you would oppose out of interest? Could you envision a situation where the economic benefits of a political union may not be worth the risks/costs?

Re: Why can’t we mandate anything? Global resurgence of patrimonial rule

#18
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, when we defer to the public instead of experts to make decisions, we get Brexit. The devastation of a country. I don't think your example is bolstering what you think it's bolstering.

> The devastation of a country. Don't you think it's odd you have such a strong opinion on Brexit? Anyone who believes Brexit is an obvious disaster isn't paying attention or is extremely disconnected. It's not like it was a simple obvious decision so your confidence is fascinating to me. There are obvious pro and cons depending on largely on your class and immigration status. My dad just got a pay rise thanks for sh…

I think it's odd that you think it's odd that I have a strong opinion. Brexit is equivalent to MAGAtry in the US. A populist, nativist, authoritarian movement, favoring strongmen over institutions.

Are you sure it's not you who's in the dark about what Brexit represents, about how it fits among similar movements throughout history, and about what the ongoing list of catastrophic consequences will be, as itemized by a host of analysts, scientists, and economists? [1]

I think maybe you're trying to pin me as a political tribalist with your union question? I don't have a political tribe, and I don't care about unions. I believe in evidence-based policy, wherever that policy points, irrespective of surrounding political narratives. I believe in a rational-legal political model grounded in the veil of ignorance.

Can you tell me how authoritarianism relates to populism?

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicted_impact_of_Brexit

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