When patents attack Android • Hacker News Board

Re: When patents attack Android

#91

Post by patrickaljord » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:05 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #78

patrickaljord wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the Nortel and Novel patent acquisition a couple of weeks ago.

How is it that when Google bid for the Nortel patents, it was "defensive," but when Apple won, it was "trolling?" Perhaps Apple bought them so that Google couldn't use them defensively against Apple's own legitimate patents? Perhaps Apple bought them so that Google couldn't use them offensively against Apple? I am open to correction, but my understanding is that so far, the only suits Apple has launched against Andro…

> How is it that when Google bid for the Nortel patents, it was "defensive," but when Apple won, it was "trolling?"

Because Google never sued any one on patents without being on the defensive. Apple and Microsoft have a track record on attacking big and small companies on patents.

Re: When patents attack Android

#92

Post by Steko » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:05 PM UTC

ori_b wrote: post #54

Steko wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're "the victim" of patents only because they have chosen to pursue a pattern of willfully infringing on competing companies patents.

I'd like to challenge you to point to a single nontrivial piece of software that doesn't infringe on someone's patents. I'd submit that it's nearly impossible.

Untrue by inspection. Patents have a life of 20 years, software written over 20 years ago not all trivial.

Totally irrelevant to the current conversation. No one thinks all patents are good or valid. Contrast with what Google does: (1) copy exactly what the leader does as close as possible, (2) not license any of the innovations we're copying and (3) push propoganda that any patents we might walk over are "bogus".

Re: When patents attack Android

#93

Post by napierzaza » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:06 PM UTC

Google is lying if they are pretending that Apple and MSFT have started the software patent issues. And they clearly could have tried harder for the Nortel patents if they wanted to. How about try to not just bid a magical number but actually try and win auctions instead?

If Google really cared about the issue of PATENTS they'd be putting as much leverage behind changing the patent laws and not just calling sour grapes for themselves. I haven't seen them jumping in and defending (actually small) tech companies from litigation or doing much more than... a blog posting.

They're also saying that the Nortel patents are dubious, but I doubt it. A legacy company like Nortel probably had a lot of patents made long ago that are worth their weight in gold.

What is Google doing about it (based on this blog post)? Not fighting the patent system itself but of course trying to overturn the patent sale, buy more patents for themselves and basically become involved in the back and forth that had predominated software patents for a while now.

This is a blog post from Google about how they want to be heavy hitters with patents too. They want to throw their weight around with patents just like everyone else and use the system in the exact same way as this axis of evil who are conspiring against them.

Re: When patents attack Android

#94

Post by hn_decay » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:07 PM UTC

chocopuff wrote: post #73

mithaler wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your comment. The OP is about Android being attacked through patents instead of through innovation, and you don't seem to be denying that that's what's happening. The article doesn't claim that "Google is always good", nor even that Google never uses anti-competitive practices. So what exactly are you objecting to? I don't think anyone here needs to be reminded that Google is a business and wants t…

The hypocrisy is unbelievable: Google is a major investor in patent troll firm Intellectual Ventures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_Ventures http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2011/05/intellectual-ventur... Amazon, Apple, Cisco, eBay, Microsoft, etc. are also investors but they are not acting like whiny babies and acting all high and mighty going around preaching about how patents are destroying innovation.…

Indeed. And once Google stocks up on thousands of purchased patents (humorously they just bought a bunch of database patents from IBM, which I have no doubt they're going to start leveraging against Oracle), you will be fully supporting it as they start demanding injunctions and stoppages against Apple and Microsoft products. Right?

Those products that, to put in your don't-understand-software-patents way, STOLE from other people's innovations?

Because it's coming, and it's going to be ugly for everyone. The patent nuclear war approaches.

Your facts seems to opine that Google should simply suffer the system. They didn't make the game, but they are a young company in a industry of longstanding titans. Apple nor Microsoft nor anyone else has a right to billions in quarterly profits for perpetuity.

Re: When patents attack Android

#95

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:07 PM UTC

JunkDNA wrote: post #82

jerf wrote: post #65

Is this why we're seeing a sudden burst of anti-patent news? Is Google in the early phases of drumming up grassroots support for a direct assault on software patents in general, without their name being on the effort? Is this post actually move 3 instead of move 1? Honest questions, BTW, if there's anybody with answers who are allowed to give answers...

Astute observation. Reminds me of this pg classic on PR: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html The timing is certainly convenient for Google.

Software developers, and Open Source developers in particular, have been adamantly against software patents for a very long time. It seems equally as likely that independent developers are taking advantage of Google's predicament to further their own goal of abolishing software patents.

Edit: I will add that I personally have done exactly this in conversation. But, in the worst case, Google is exploiting a sentiment that already exists, rather than creating it from nothing.

Re: When patents attack Android

#96

Post by JunkDNA » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:07 PM UTC

hullo wrote: post #22

It's blatantly incorrect to say of Apple (and even Microsoft) that "Instead of competing by building new features or devices, they are fighting through litigation." Regardless of one's feelings about software patent lawsuits (I'm opposed), a better phrase than "instead of" might be "in addition to".

Agree totally. It doesn't really appeal to me personally, but Microsoft in particular is trying to do some new things from a UI and software perspective with Windows Phone. From what I have read about it, it actually seems like one of the few products where MS hasn't tried to systematically copy what is being done elsewhere.

Re: When patents attack Android

#97

Post by dman » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:08 PM UTC

davidu wrote: post #79

yanw wrote: post #77

It's sad that pro-patent asstroturf hijacks serious anti-patent discussions on HN, it's obvious that the HN sentiment towards software patents is that of disgust, yet when a passionate and rare post like this makes headlines somehow a pro-patent sentiment creeps out. Software patents are a joke, just listen to this now famous 'This American Life' piece: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/w...…

I'm not pro-patent, I just want Google's motives as I see them to be more transparent, and that is what I am aiming to achieve with my comment. If they thought patents were more strategic for them, they wouldn't be anti-patent. For them it's purely a strategic viewpoint that benefits them due to their current size. That patents are grossly abused is a serious issue that is quickly coming to a head, so it won't take a…

Companies that consider themselves in a growth phase take an anti intellectual property stance. Once they are sitting on an empire they shift positions. Its the rational thing to do. All this says about Google is that they are still looking to enter and disrupt new markets.

Re: When patents attack Android

#98

Post by AllenKids » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:09 PM UTC

danenania wrote: post #76

AllenKids wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See the problem is quite a few companies do not think Android is 100% Google's own creation. Oracle is asking a price for the Java part. Apple does not want its own UI to be a part. And FSM knows what parts Microsoft feels entitled to.

Right, and those companies are full of shit, because Apple's UI is just an amalgamation of shiny icons and features that have been used countless times in countless places--in mobile, the web, standard oses, everywhere . Do they do a great job of packaging all these features together for a good user experience? Certainly. But 'good design' shouldn't be patentable. Same with Java. Name one feature of Java that hasn't…

And we all pay for the right to stand there, for no longer than 20 years.

In the tech industry, 20 years are couple of lifetimes long. I'm in favor of shorten the period too.

Re: When patents attack Android

#99

Post by Steko » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

hn_decay wrote: post #83

Steko wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't claim to know anything. I assumed it's willful because it's been a repeated pattern of behavior and because of the full court propaganda press they have been making against patents.

This is an incredible claim. Do you realize that Apple and Microsoft are being sued constantly as well?

I don't know what's incredible about it. That a company that copies things might infringe patents?

Do I realize that Apple infringes patents? Yes. Are you aware that Apple doesn't cry about how it's the end of the world and we're all going to have to pay more for the next iphone because they had to write Nokia a check for Nokia's previous and substantial innovations to mobile?

Re: When patents attack Android

#100

Post by hn_decay » Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

yanw wrote: post #77

It's sad that pro-patent asstroturf hijacks serious anti-patent discussions on HN, it's obvious that the HN sentiment towards software patents is that of disgust, yet when a passionate and rare post like this makes headlines somehow a pro-patent sentiment creeps out. Software patents are a joke, just listen to this now famous 'This American Life' piece: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/w...…

Perhaps this is an unfair caricature, but it has been my observation that the vast majority of "pro-software patent" supporters are misguided fans of either Microsoft or Apple. They seldom have anything to do with software development, and their perspective is seldom enlightened or nuanced.

Strawman, unfair, bigotry, whatever -- I would love to be proven wrong. I have yet to hear a pro-software patent argument that isn't littered with corporate partisan nonsense.