Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods • Hacker News Board

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#511

Post by 734129837261 » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

vwoolf wrote: post #440

734129837261 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Designations. That's how. Some houses are built and intended to be rented out to people. These houses are constructed entirely by companies (or people) for that purpose alone. Other houses are meant to be for purchase, and purchase only. If you purchase a house like this and then rent it out, that should be considered breaking the intended designation. So if you as an individual want to own multiple houses to rent ou…

So the solution to government interference in the market (by preventing adequate building from occurring) is yet more interference, and that interference will by fiat somehow lower prices, but without dramatically increasing supply. What could possibly go wrong??

The government isn't preventing anything, it's a free market. The only thing that needs to change is to prevent companies from buying houses meant to be sold for ownership who then rent them out instead. That is working against the people. The law would work for the people.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#512

Post by yread » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #483

colechristensen wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the housing market is so inefficient that removing a significant source of demand won’t change prices? That is an exceptional claim that requires exceptional evidence.

New Zealand banned foreign buyers a couple years ago and house prices are up 20-50% nationwide since then. https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/119636052/foreign-buy... The problem is that people chronically overestimate the number of foreign buyers in the market. I can't find data for the Netherlands online, but for other western nations, it is around four or five percent of demand. Removing that will have essenti…

Foreign investors account for more than half of total real estate investment flows in the Netherlands, see page 8

https://www.bouwinvest.nl/media/4305/bouwinvest-dutch-real-e...

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#513

Post by missedthecue » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

yread wrote: post #512

missedthecue wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New Zealand banned foreign buyers a couple years ago and house prices are up 20-50% nationwide since then. https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/119636052/foreign-buy... The problem is that people chronically overestimate the number of foreign buyers in the market. I can't find data for the Netherlands online, but for other western nations, it is around four or five percent of demand. Removing that will have essenti…

Foreign investors account for more than half of total real estate investment flows in the Netherlands, see page 8 https://www.bouwinvest.nl/media/4305/bouwinvest-dutch-real-e...

That is real estate investment flow. That's not the same thing as housing. The graph you linked shows the majority of the investment going into things like office space, industrial real estate, retail, hotels, healthcare, etc...

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#514

Post by speleding » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

berkes wrote: post #377

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those terribly myopic and symbolic policies that the Netherlands (despite generally one of the best governed countries in the world) keeps falling for. Studies have shown over and over again that investors aren't causing the price increases in the Netherlands. Prices won't improve much. Renting is going to take a beating, which is already an extremely small sector in the Netherlands, among the smallest…

As above, you are presenting as a fact that investors aren't causing increasing prices. And as above, that is both uncited and, at the very least, a highly debatable 'fact'. Even if not the only cause (is there ever just one isolated cause in economics), investing certainly is a big part.

Basic economic theory says that the price is determined by supply and demand. Investors buying house does not affect supply or demand, since they will simply rent out the house.

If you claim that investors are causing a significant price increase then I think onus would be on you to cite a source.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#515

Post by gruez » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

DoubleDerper wrote: post #381

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those terribly myopic and symbolic policies that the Netherlands (despite generally one of the best governed countries in the world) keeps falling for. Studies have shown over and over again that investors aren't causing the price increases in the Netherlands. Prices won't improve much. Renting is going to take a beating, which is already an extremely small sector in the Netherlands, among the smallest…

"Studies have shown over and over again that investors aren't causing the price increases in the Netherlands" Source(s), please.

Sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28425948

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#516

Post by devdas » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:39 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #370

Spooky23 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re in a suicide spiral where fiscal policy has staved off economic malaise by kicking the can down the road. Interest rates have been kept low, which drives real property prices up. Everyone intuitively knows that collapse or high inflation is the endgame, so money flocks to property, which drives up demand. The issue isn’t the coffee shop in the fishing village, it’s that the fishermen are selling real estate now…

Low interest rates have made everything cheap but the supply of housing (specifically land) is extremely inflexible. You can make more cars but not land. The location value of your house skyrockets at the expense of everyone else. However, make no mistake. The problem isn't money. Even if you buy your house with Bitcoin you will run into the same problem. The problem is that location is a a monopoly. You can tax it o…

Nothing that a wealth tax on the current value of land won't fix. Make property taxes to the value of the number of people that land should support in a highrise configuration, and let the current owners pay it.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#517

Post by mrkstu » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #472

imtringued wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low interest rates have made everything cheap but the supply of housing (specifically land) is extremely inflexible. You can make more cars but not land. The location value of your house skyrockets at the expense of everyone else. However, make no mistake. The problem isn't money. Even if you buy your house with Bitcoin you will run into the same problem. The problem is that location is a a monopoly. You can tax it o…

> You can make more cars but not land. Lots of land exists, the issue is desirable cities, and western countries have gotten really bad at making those. China spent the first decade of the 21st century creating urban cities left and right, ignore the western propaganda of "ghost cities", and also spent time urbanizing what America would consider "suburban" towns. Meanwhile western nations are dead set on never increa…

Whole states like Idaho and Utah have seen skyrocketing prices for homes- this is in no way limited to specific urban environments.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#518

Post by gpvos » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #328

rusteh1 wrote: post #165

I don't understand how this would work. How do people rent? Obviously many people can't or do not wish to own their house for any number of reasons. Who will own houses that are rented? I used to live in Amsterdam as an expat, and rented from a landlord who owned several homes in Amsterdam. Would she not be able to own and rent these homes under this scheme? The social housing system seemed to be abused when I was th…

This is one of those terribly myopic and symbolic policies that the Netherlands (despite generally one of the best governed countries in the world) keeps falling for. Studies have shown over and over again that investors aren't causing the price increases in the Netherlands. Prices won't improve much. Renting is going to take a beating, which is already an extremely small sector in the Netherlands, among the smallest…

Means testing would force medium-rich people to live on the streets (or with their parents), since there are no rental houses available between 700 and 1200 euro/month (that is, between social housing and the liberalized sector), and not all of them will be able to buy a home with the current prices.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#519

Post by iso1210 » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #252

iso1210 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even with HTB which is a terrible policy the people who can afford to buy are already in the top percentiles What a load of rubbish. HTB really helped us when buying by giving 5 years of interest free We bought a 240k house with a 12k deposit and 48k htb. Moving costs etc meant we had to find about £17k, which we borrowed. Assuming you do that now, HTB means paying £647 a month on the mortgage and £330 a month on r…

The problem with HTB is that it sustains inflation. Essentially it subsidises continued property prices' growth, which, in my view, is rather nonsensical economically. As for saving for a deposit, I think an issue is also that many people seem not to have been educated about the benefits of saving at all. Bluntly, many young people I see find the money for short term consumption and don't save anything.

When I was young my outgoings were mainly the cheapest rent I could find. And maybe a slice of avocado toast once a week /s

This is because rents rise to the amount someone is willing to pay, which is basically what they earn, because they have to live somewhere near work. If they get free board then they can swiftly build up savings and buy a house and continue the cycle of wealth. If they have to pay, they're screwed.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#520

Post by iso1210 » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

Dayshine wrote: post #295

iso1210 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Round here in Cornwall the jobs are things like surf instructor, supermarket worker, barperson, etc. That's not gonna stretch to the local house prices. That was the case. A colleague of mine, originally from St Just, moved to London for work as so many have to do. Another from near Cockermouth did the same. Both now work remotely full time from their 'home towns' on decent wages. Covid has done wonders for local c…

Median post-tax household income in the UK is £30k. So, £25k each is roughly £20k post-tax, so you're looking at the top 30% of households. Admittedly this includes households including people who are "retired" but I think that's reasonable as plenty of people have to keep working even though they're receiving a pension. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...

Median weekly earnings for full-time employees reached £585 in April 2019, an increase of 2.9% since April 2018 [0]

That's £30k a year.

[0] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...