It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#251

Post by maxk42 » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:32 PM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #69

I’m a little confused, wouldn’t this mean that there are people sitting around who seemingly prefer no job than a lower than they would like paying job? I don’t understand how all these unemployed people are surviving.

I think what we're seeing is the large proportion of the workforce that can get by on one income rather than two doing so.

Many, many workers are working for non-economic reasons. Retired people work for exercise and social interactions. Married couples who can get by on one income no longer need to have both spouses working. And forcing students into attending classes from home has further forced more and more working couples to take a break to supervise their kids who are learning at home since most children (particularly young children) cannot be trusted to attend their classes without direct supervision. Many teenagers, also, who would have been in the workforce to have some spending money have decided the risks of the pandemic aren't worth it. And then there's the unemployment benefits. In short: Many people who can get by without working suddenly are.

It only takes a few percent of the population choosing to no longer work to create a massive labor shortage.

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#252

Post by antisthenes » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

docflabby wrote: post #124

The real problem is inflation and excessive rent seeking. Rents are currently at the highest level on record in the US. Hard to get someone to take a job that won't even pay the rent. The wealth trickle up has changed into a torrent since covid, something is going to break.

Rent-seeking and regular rent in a landlord-tenant relationship are not the same thing.

Rents did go up as a result of general inflation and the eviction moratorium, but that is not the same as rent-seeking.

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#253

Post by rufusroflpunch » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:40 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #14

rufusroflpunch wrote: post #10

After doing absolutely anything and everything possible for the past 18 months to create a dysfunctional economy, it is laughable to contribute the current five-alarm fire in the US labor market to bad pay and shifting worker expectations.

What you call a "five-alarm fire" is people getting nice large raises.

I went to get lunch with my brother. We had to go to four restaurants before we found one with an open dining room.

I went to the grocery store a couple of days ago. They one register and a bank of self-checkout open at 5 PM. The lines were 20 carts deep.

My daughters school is doing rotating classroom closings, not because of covid but because they can’t hire teachers.

My Amazon shipments have ballooned from 1-2 to 5 days.

These are just some personal stories. We haven’t talked about global supply chain issues, container gluts, price inflation, food shortages, etc.

This is a level of dysfunction I have not seen in my 37 years on earth.

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#254

Post by fallingfrog » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #125

imglorp wrote: post #78

This is also about healthcare, which is trickle-up economics. If workers and employers alike are not concerned about paying thousands a year for premiums, that would be a double benefit that would appear as jobs. If the US can spend billions on fossil subsidies and trillions on military and foreign wars, it should be a no brainer to stimulate domestic the economy with universal healthcare.

> If the US can spend billions on fossil subsidies and trillions on military and foreign wars, it should be a no brainer to stimulate domestic the economy with universal healthcare. The numbers you're looking at are too small. The war on terror cost $8 trillion in 20 years.[0] That's $500 billion a year. Divide this by US population (330M) and you get $1,515. How much healthcare could you buy for that per year? And d…

Universal healthcare actually saves money. It’s a mistaken assumption that conservatives always pick the cheapest or most efficient option. They pick the one that’s cheapest for people with a lot of assets. Individual insurance is paid for mostly by the middle class; universal healthcare is paid by taxes, which means rich people contribute more than they benefit.

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#255

Post by tchaffee » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:46 PM UTC

b3morales wrote: post #248

tchaffee wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a naive understanding of what's really happening at most restaurants. Cash tips are almost always significantly under-reported. It's nowhere near as low as "tip jar on the counter" amounts.

Yes, of course there is underreporting; nothing in my comment says otherwise. I'm not following your point. Since some people cheat on their taxes, they shouldn't be paid wages instead, because then they wouldn't be able to underreport as easily?

My point was that the under-reporting is in much larger amounts than your claim that "You can get away with not reporting it if it's a few extra bucks from a jar on a counter."

> Since some people cheat on their taxes, they shouldn't be paid wages instead, because then they wouldn't be able to underreport as easily?

How did you get this from what I said? I said nothing to that effect. Not even close. My point was very simple.

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#256

Post by oxnrtr » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #52

atrus wrote: post #12

Painfully obvious too. My little local Mexcian place will be closing down because of a lack of cooks. Talking to the owner, he was complaining about government benefits, and how they all want $20 an hour. I don't understand it, that you'd either a) be willing to drive your business into the ground serving a limited menu because you won't hire a couple cooks at $20 an hour, or b) have a business so close to the brink…

You're presenting it as he has an infinite money supply and just of pure stupidity and greed doesn't want to pay $20 or $50 per hour. Maybe his supply is not unlimited, and maybe nobody would buy a taco for $50 and he knows it, and he made the calculation and decided there's no way to pay all his costs, charge the price that people would be willing to pay, and make a profit. Now, if you know how to do it, there's a b…

Paying people properly has very little impact on customer prices, see countries who enforce this.

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#257

Post by fallingfrog » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

fallingfrog wrote: post #254

Aerroon wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the US can spend billions on fossil subsidies and trillions on military and foreign wars, it should be a no brainer to stimulate domestic the economy with universal healthcare. The numbers you're looking at are too small. The war on terror cost $8 trillion in 20 years.[0] That's $500 billion a year. Divide this by US population (330M) and you get $1,515. How much healthcare could you buy for that per year? And d…

Universal healthcare actually saves money . It’s a mistaken assumption that conservatives always pick the cheapest or most efficient option. They pick the one that’s cheapest for people with a lot of assets . Individual insurance is paid for mostly by the middle class; universal healthcare is paid by taxes, which means rich people contribute more than they benefit.

Of course, if you want to explain why middle class conservatives support this position, it’s because the ideology of conservatism revolves around material success being equivalent to godliness. And as god’s chosen people and his representatives on earth it is their job to punish the iniquitous, therefore it is not only the privilege but also the duty of the powerful to trample on the weak. They couch this in rhetoric involving “personal responsibility” and so forth but this is what it really boils down to.

So maintaining a moral order means punishing the unworthy. This means poor people, who are assumed to be slothful, and immigrants and brown people for other reasons. They are willing to pay money to make sure that the people they have contempt for, suffer. Once you understand this all sorts of things start to make sense.

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#258

Post by b3morales » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

notanzaiiswear wrote: post #199

angelzen wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The owner won't hire a couple of cooks at $20 an hour because he won't be able to pay off his mortgages anymore. The banker sits behind all this and collects his fat percentage cut while laughing at the plebs fighting with each other over scraps. We have a 3 tier system: minimum wage workers condemned to a perpetual state of precarity, middle class professional and small business types that toil away paying hefty mor…

Have you looked at interest rates lately? The times of "extortionate rates" are long gone.

The Fed's rate might be low, but is that reflected in rates for consumer debt?

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#259

Post by ryandrake » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #165

gruez wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If I go to a restaurant a real person taking the order is part of the ambiance and expected service. You pay for it (maybe not in USA though). >At the last place I visited some guy dropped a tablet on the table. It said 'Next-gen Restaurant Experience' at the back. We got to fiddle a long time to type our 6-person order in. Crappy. Last time I visit there. I'm definitely okay with fiddling with a tablet if it meant…

The real future of this is everyone using an app on their phone that they are familiar with, like uber eats or doordash, with a few loaner tablets. Although in the end the waiter might be necessary from a customer support and questions perspective tbh. I did an ordering app thing in a restaurant and we still talked to the 'bus boy' to ask questions in the end.

You could also make a reservation and submit your order from your phone and pay for it before you leave. Then you can show up at the estimated time, sit down, and immediately start enjoying your meal! No more waiting for the host to seat you, then waiting for the waiter to bring you water, then waiting for the waiter to take your drink order, then waiting for the waiter to take your food order, then waiting for all the food, then finally waiting to get the bill, waiting for the waiter to pick up your credit card, and waiting for the waiter to come back with your card.

There is so much inefficiency about your typical restaurant visit just begging to be optimized out. Restaurants win, too, because they can accommodate more customers per hour.

I tend to just not go to sit-down restaurants because they always manage to turn a 30 minute eating session into a 90 minute wait-fest.

Re: It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers rights shortage

#260

Post by prepend » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

birdyrooster wrote: post #87

prepend wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Robots are better at menial, repetitive tasks. No matter what you pay a cashier, they will never be better than an ATM. Free humans to do menial work. I think it’s pointless to try to improve wages for these low end jobs. Similarly with fruit picking. It pays poorly and is hard and dangerous. The solution isn’t to improve wages, but to automate. Humans shouldn’t be forced to do meaningless jobs.

According to the parent commenter Marxism 101 is to treat humans like pitiful cogs that need to do the same shit work over and over and over. I’m a leftist but I think peoples quality of living is much more than a good wage. Automating certain shitty jobs can free up spend for giving other more fulfilling jobs a better wage.

I think the solution to that is to just put robots in place of “pitiful cogs.” I think it’s quite depressing to keep humans in pointless roles.

I was once a security guard and it’s terrible work. So boring. The pay was crap. Of course, I would have liked more pay. But I was much happier getting a different, better job, than even doubling my pay.