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Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

plaintextaccounting.org

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Re: Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

#91
Does anybody else feel that the hype behind accounting, especially double book accounting, is somewhat overblown for its actual substance?

Every time I dig into accounting and try to learn it more in depth, it seems that the foundation is trivial. And it coasts on a few "clever" implications from the double book assertion (income/expense accounts), almost in spite of how they don't make sense. You can't classify an item as multiple expense categories without growing the semantic model, so why do you even need the concept of an expense "account" in the first place, as opposed to a single entry in your cash account, tagged with categories?

Meanwhile the bulk of the real complexity revolves around tax rules, which always seem to get left out of "accounting" proper, even though they're the overwhelming reason people to go accountants. I actually installed QuickBooks the other week to see what the gold standard looked like, and it ultimately just seemed to be another way to keep basic credit/debit accounts, with little in the way of preparing/optimizing taxes. Its main value add seemed to be in generating paperwork (eg invoices), that while perhaps nice to formalize, would just increase my scope rather than solve my problems. I expected that it would have automatically prodded me into creating a depreciation schedule and things like that, but it appeared I had to set things like that up manually in terms of basic accounts?

I'm asking because I see people talk about accounting as if they're getting a lot of value out of it. But every time I've dug into it thinking there must be something I'm missing, I've never ended up seeing that value.

Re: Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

#92
post #10

I've used the ledger-likes extensively, and they have two major problems: (1) One of the hard problems in personal finance is data capture and input validation. Programs like QuickBooks and Xero don't just hide the GL because they're being mean, they're doing it because even experienced bookkeepers make mistakes on the general ledger all the time. "Since it's a text file it's easy to read" solves exactly the wrong pr…

> One of the hard problems in personal finance is data capture With hledger and vim, I typically search and copy a previous similar transaction, then search and copy similar items. I have a keybinding to change the date, so like 3\d changes the date of the transaction I copied to 3 days ago. Overall, being proficient in vim, capture takes very few keystrokes. Since the files are plain text, I can easily e.g. list all…

> and input validation

Emacs users should look into Flycheck integration, eg https://hledger.org/editors.html#flycheck-hledger . Real time indication of parse and balance errors as you edit is nice!

Re: Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

#93

How does that compare to GNU Cash? Also, I cannot and will not share personal financial data to yet another 3rd party SaaS. So please refrain from mentioning YNAB and the likes ^^

To the downvoters: can you clarify how my comment triggered your downvote?

Re: Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Termux on the phone with custom ledger focused org capture templates has worked well for me Now I just use a simple discord bot to capture, which is synced to a private git repository

Is your bot that does this open sourced? This seems very interesting

It would be nice to see how hard it would be to convert into a Matrix bot, at least the conversation would be end-to-end encrypted.

Re: Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

#95
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hard problems in personal finance is data capture and input validation It's also true for business accounting. Getting data into your accounting/ERP software is always a clusterfuck, and I've yet to see a process that didn't require many hours/days of reconciliation and posting manual journal entries to close a reporting period.

This is the data representation problem. It's in the customers' best interest to have a universal format. It's in no one else's (read: especially vendors) interest for there to be a universal format. Which is why you generally only see it when it's mandated by a coordinating party in the middle (e.g. Medicare).

In finance, would this be the open banking standard?

Re: Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

#97

Site maintainer here. Thanks for the link! Suggestions are welcome for next time I'm tweaking the site.

Here's my quick partial history of Plain Text Accounting (PTA), to catch you up:

- 2003: John Wiegley creates the field with the Ledger command line tool and its file format.

- 2007, 2008: I and Martin Blais create two new "ledgerlikes", hledger and Beancount, with their own technologies/priorities/maintenance styles.

- 2003-present: Community grows; many helper scripts, tools, docs, and other ledgerlikes appear.

- 2016: To grow the ecosystem, organise resources, and reduce support effort, I coin the Plain Text Accounting phrase and set up #plaintextaccounting IRC channel and https://plaintextaccounting.org. (And in all honesty, also to encourage objective comparison shopping and regain a little oxygen for Ledger alternatives).

- 2017: Colin Dean sets up the plaintextaccounting subreddit.

- 2021: The community continues to grow. The IRC chat is bridged with a Matrix room. Ledger has been "done" for many years but may have a new release soon. hledger has been steadily developing, with quarterly releases. Beancount is in process of a big rewrite. There are some other strong ledgerlikes, currently with much smaller userbases.

Re: Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

#98

I really don't know for whom this is for. For Normal People: Double Entry even though may sound simple, it is quite a difficult concept to grasp. For the sake of double entry we use counter entries that take months to grasp. For example - Amortization, Allowance etc. More over double entry method strives for standardization of entries. Having a plaintext non-autocompleting solution without accounting for only handful…

Well, my company has been using Ledger CLI for a decade. It has a few large advantages over off-the-shelf accounting packages, the primary one is that it allows us to extend the "Everything is code" approach to everything from ops to accounting. - For example, instead of someone needing to remember passwords to five different current accounts and credit card sites, there are ruby scripts that download the data, conve…

Ledger CLI in a company in this day and age?

I forgot to mention I studied accounting in uni and after investing/wasting my time into understanding CLI and terminal application I have come to the conclusion that they are simply not for me. Specially if you are not using Linux in all your applications and even that is another issue. I digress...

I am just incredibly intrigued by your organization's practice. Who are the people that are interacting with accounting system? I know it requires a more than capable IT person to feel comfortable using a CLI. So, do you not have assistants or accounts professionals whose main job or one of their main is to do accounting? Or is it all IT or programmers that are interacting with this system.

How large is your organization. That is a question also.

How long did the organization ran for to settle on understanding the basic requirements from the accounting software to commit to creating a CLI solution?

How are you outputting reports that are well formatted?

Audit usually requires a walkthrough process of accounting. I couldn't imagine any auditor not being surprised to see a CLI based software and let alone attempting to understand these.

I have thought about creating my own CLI solution that just appended to my workbook. But it is just not scalable and simple modularity requires going down the codebase which is not something I imagine doing on the weekends.

And that is why the barrage of questions. With CLI applications (not even custom GUI application) the layer of complexities for the sake of simplicity means that the person using it has a ton of highly specific needs that is not the standardized and they also have a very different definition of the word "simple".

Re: Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

#99
post #48

I really don't know for whom this is for. For Normal People: Double Entry even though may sound simple, it is quite a difficult concept to grasp. For the sake of double entry we use counter entries that take months to grasp. For example - Amortization, Allowance etc. More over double entry method strives for standardization of entries. Having a plaintext non-autocompleting solution without accounting for only handful…

I've used Ledger for a number of years because I'm comfortable using plain text files. I just send CSV exports and reports to my accountant. I'm an independent software developer working on my own. I guess it's useful for people like me.

How are you generating the reports? Are they in PDF?

Re: Plain Text Accounting, a guide to Ledger and friends

#100
post #95
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the data representation problem. It's in the customers' best interest to have a universal format. It's in no one else's (read: especially vendors) interest for there to be a universal format. Which is why you generally only see it when it's mandated by a coordinating party in the middle (e.g. Medicare).

In finance, would this be the open banking standard?

It might be partly a US vs. UK/EUR thing, where the latter are more comfortable with compelling industry to just do a thing. And the former is very uncomfortable with that.

In the US, open banking would probably look more like "the IRS requires a bank to have accounts readable using these formats, or otherwise be able to provide same manually, when requested" to prod industry to do it.

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