Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods • Hacker News Board

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#371

Post by zamfi » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #353

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why the amen is applicable to Dutch cities. I'll take the local perspective from Amsterdam as an example, but it applies more broadly to the other cities as well here. Regarding point 1: There's no real issues with long-term vacancies (the municipality already has laws in-place which fine owners of vacant homes), typically sits between 1 and 2%. That should obviously go down to 0 as much as possible, but it'…

The Netherlands is just too rich that it is working against itself. We have created a society where every person wants their own house- 17 million people 10 million houses. And the Netherlands is a magnet for migrants- compared to most of the world the streets are paved with gold. And no matter how much the prices go up people can and will pay. Unless there's a mayor economic recession things will not get better.

> 17 million people 10 million houses

Wait, you’re making it sound like this is an obvious case of not enough supply — which could potentially be solved by building more homes! — but in fact, it’s the total opposite: the average Dutch household has 2.14 people, so that’s 8 million households vs. 10 million houses! (I assume this is overwhelmingly folks who want to live together: partners, kids, etc., not just folks who can’t afford to live alone.)

Sounds to me like there are 2 million extra houses, not 7 million missing ones.

So what, exactly, causes the problem? Presumably, those 2m extra houses just aren’t in the right places?

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#372

Post by imtringued » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

aikinai wrote: post #274

ForHackernews wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a self-correcting problem, isn't it? Either those cafes and shops will raise prices and pay their staff more, or they'll close down. I've never understood why we're supposed to feel bad for "small business owners" who won't find staff when paying peanuts for their crappy jobs.

You think those small business owners are packing away substantial profits they could use to pay staff significantly more?

From my gut feeling it doesn't seem that small business owners actually get the funding they deserve from banks. Only big businesses actually get those low interest rates.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#373

Post by berkes » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #331

Freak_NL wrote: post #190

This is desperately needed. And not just in the major cities; this is happening in every Dutch town. Amsterdam may have prices beyond absurd, but the whole nation is burdened by this problem. In the street I live in the capital of the northern province of Fryslân (Frisia) most homes are owned by their inhabitants, but in the past few years we've seen several houses being bought by small-time investors (who already ow…

When I was living in NL I knew a guy who had a mortgage for a house in Australia, a mortgage on a house in Groningen and then he was looking to get another mortgage for a house in Den Haag. Banks don't seem to cooperate internationally or even nationally; he never told the banks he has mortgages already.

While banks may not check this on signing, they'll certainly check it when you start defaulting.

This really is the worst advice ever. It's a sure way to get you in Real Trouble when shit hits fans. This is not legal advice either, btw. Just someone who read the tiny letters in the mortgage contracts.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#374

Post by ModernMech » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

nathanvanfleet wrote: post #360

I have thought about San Francisco. It really does feel like this whole city is empty. No stores stay in business, no one seems to be walking around these neighborhoods. I have considered if you can fly around with a plane at night and use something like heat vision to determine who is home?Because I think the stats are just not correct for SF

San Francisco has enough empty homes to house every homeless person in SF many times over. And there are a lot of homeless in SF, so that's saying something.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#375

Post by imtringued » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #259

spockz wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that before there existed an ecosystem. That “peanuts” is what the business owner was able to afford to pay which was enough for the employees to make a somewhat decent living. Now that isn’t possible anymore. The objection is to the change/disruption of a local ecosystem by outsiders.

Blaming outsiders - classic strategy, can’t go wrong!

We are blaming outsiders for giving us too much money. Where is all that money going if not into the hands of locals who are selling their property?

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#376

Post by dogma1138 » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #346

dogma1138 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LTV won’t work in the UK land ownership is way too concentrated and leaseholds give land owners an easy tool to transfer the cost to the leaseholders. London and other metropolitan areas still have a lot of low income housing in very high value areas, there are current/former council houses in Westminster and Kensington and Chelsea for example that sit on land worth billions. LVT in the UK would likely just increase…

"leaseholds give land owners an easy tool to transfer the cost to the leaseholders" This relationship has always reminding me of medieval surfdom, i think it's deeply unfair and rigged and needs to be abolished.

It is the UK never really had a “democratization” of land ownership like the rest of Europe especially following WW2.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#377

Post by berkes » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #328

rusteh1 wrote: post #165

I don't understand how this would work. How do people rent? Obviously many people can't or do not wish to own their house for any number of reasons. Who will own houses that are rented? I used to live in Amsterdam as an expat, and rented from a landlord who owned several homes in Amsterdam. Would she not be able to own and rent these homes under this scheme? The social housing system seemed to be abused when I was th…

This is one of those terribly myopic and symbolic policies that the Netherlands (despite generally one of the best governed countries in the world) keeps falling for. Studies have shown over and over again that investors aren't causing the price increases in the Netherlands. Prices won't improve much. Renting is going to take a beating, which is already an extremely small sector in the Netherlands, among the smallest…

As above, you are presenting as a fact that investors aren't causing increasing prices. And as above, that is both uncited and, at the very least, a highly debatable 'fact'.

Even if not the only cause (is there ever just one isolated cause in economics), investing certainly is a big part.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#378

Post by Genego » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

iamnotwhoiam wrote: post #159

Genego wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that these investors have raised rents nationally to a point where there is no affordable housing outside of social housing (8-15+ year wait lists). And this happened in a very short time period. If I'd want a 60-80m2 apartment in the city I currently live, I'd have to pay 1000-1200+ Euro for that; three to four years ago, that would have been half. Just over the border in Germany the same apartment go…

Is that because Germany had banned property investment or because supply keeps up with demand in Germany?

Germany has much better tenant and rental market protection. Real estate prices are rising rapidly, but supply does seem to keep up with demand when it comes down to renting. Population density in Germany also is only half that of the Netherlands (240 vs 508 per km2), so that also helps. If you're priced out somewhere, you always have the option to move somewhere else. In the Netherlands you don't have much of a option right now when it comes down to renting (and mostly buying as well).

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#379

Post by imtringued » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

taffronaut wrote: post #267

headmelted wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it’s an easily fixable problem. Punitively heavy land taxes on non-primary dwellings solves this overnight. It also raises a lot of capital that can be used to provide services in the area.

Unfortunately the wealthy tend not to want to be taxed and they're not averse to fighting back. They've learned that they need to lobby even small local tax-raising authorities to obstruct these kinds of actions. In Wales, local authorities are allowed to raise a local tax premium of up to 100% on holiday homes [1], but few, if any, charge a premium of more than 50%, even in affected areas considered to be in crisis.…

The fundamental problem isn't that investors vote against land value taxes. The problem is that the small homeowner doesn't want to pay them either so he will vote for the benefit of the investors.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#380

Post by imtringued » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

DrBazza wrote: post #194

iso1210 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Round here in Cornwall the jobs are things like surf instructor, supermarket worker, barperson, etc. That's not gonna stretch to the local house prices. That was the case. A colleague of mine, originally from St Just, moved to London for work as so many have to do. Another from near Cockermouth did the same. Both now work remotely full time from their 'home towns' on decent wages. Covid has done wonders for local c…

> Now sure if you didn't get the education to get a decent job. Hell even on 25k each, Nationwide can lend upto £275k for a first time buyer - just need that deposit. This horrifies me. Even the slightest increase in interest rates will ruin a huge number of home owners. On the other hand, home ownership in the UK isn’t normal either. It’s only since the 50s or perhaps 60s that the average person has been able to aff…

>This horrifies me. Even the slightest increase in interest rates will ruin a huge number of home owners.

And the slightest increase in inflation will benefit them.

A competent central bank would make sure that it all balances out.