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Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

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Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#101
post #51

True question: is there a value that elsevier&co are providing? Proofreading or Selecting the articles, by example? If so, even if their price reflect more their de facto monopoly than this value, if we want to replace them we need to also find a way to replace it. Could we outcompete them?

Working in research, I do see a clear business value that Elsevier&co are providing and why they continue to get their money.

It's acting as an impartial rating/filtering service for the non-scientist administrators.

In essence, the funding agencies want a way to evaluate scientists and institutions without asking their scientists and institutions to do so, probably because they don't trust them, and also because they have very strong incentives to avoid making any subjective judgment themselves but instead defer to some "objective" outside source - so they use paper counts published in "proper places" or the existence of papers published in "very good places" as the evaluation metric to circumvent the (genuinely very hard!) problem of evaluating the quality/quantity of the actual research done.

And so this incentive, attached to much of the money flowing within academia, trickles down to evaluation of people when hiring and promoting (the committees also often look at paper counts and publication venue rankings instead of trying to evaluate the actual papers - which is time-consuming, and if the papers are not in "your field", then very hard to make an informed judgement) and so to the individual motivations of almost all the people in the system, who have to take into account the "proper publishing rituals" or severely limit their career.

So having worked a bit with administration and evaluation of funding proposals I kind of see why something like that is valuable in general, the main problem being is that the costs are enormous and not really commensurate with the provided value - however, all the costs and barriers are suffered by "someone else" (i.e. the scientific community), while all this value is provided exactly to the funding decision makers who have the power to prevent replacing the current system of Elsevier&co, but don't really suffer from its problems. And when I say "funding decision makers" I don't mean people who have the money and personally care about if it's spent efficiently, I mean all the administrators and bureaucrats running the process of allocating someone else's money or hiring scientists in e.g. some public institution, and whatever "sticks and carrots" these administrators have in their career. This means that to outcompete the current process, any solution would have to benefit them (not the scientists) or it won't be accepted and used, and it's hard to imagine what that would be since there's a huge barrier of entry (e.g. it must work for evaluating/ranking all scientists/institutions, across all disciplines and across all the decades of previous work, or it's not useful) and a huge inertia, as the criteria are also included in very many hard to change legal documents e.g. contracts for long-term funding projects, bylaws and processes of many organizations and committees, actual laws regulating funding institutions, etc; if we had a clear winning replacement launched today, it would still take at least 5-10 years to switch to it.

IMHO the way to change is not a competing solution - it requires institutional change, with the major decision makers simply choosing to make decisions on different factors that do not include the metrics of Elsevier et al. Here's a talk by Stonebraker which gives a strong related argument - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJFKl_5JTnA&t=1220s . However, this institutional change is not that likely because, as I said, for the people who can change this there's little incentive to change, and the people who would benefit from this change are not in a position to make it.

Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#102
post #51

True question: is there a value that elsevier&co are providing? Proofreading or Selecting the articles, by example? If so, even if their price reflect more their de facto monopoly than this value, if we want to replace them we need to also find a way to replace it. Could we outcompete them?

Depending on the field of research it is quite common to publish only in open access journals [1]. At my university, we are actually only allowed to publish in peer-reviewed OA journals. Most of them provide a paid subscription for the print version while the online version is free and open to everyone.

However, I got the (personal) impression, that this is only well established in fundamental research (which typically comes with few economic interest). As soon as the research is not paid by the state but by private companies (such as in medicine, robotics or any other "applied sciences"), scientists have a hard time to choose a OA journal (i.e. either it does not exist or you are not allowed to publish there). Changing this scheme is of course quite difficult, since too many commercial parties still benefit from it (which likely can only be change by law)...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access

Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#103
If authors kept their copyrights and submitted the articles to the likes of sci-hub themselves, they would enjoy higher citations and virtually everyone would do this and all this would be legal. But now journals are keeping uncountable number of articles as hostage in order to parasitize on publicly funded institutions and universities. Higher education places in Africa and other poor parts of the world that don't have resources are unable to lawfully access the papers, it's not just morally wrong, the current system is throttling the progress of science and harms the research in important subjects.

Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#104
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have access to poils of billions of dollars because they are expected to aim to return multiples of those billions. How would a startup reach unicorn valuation based on publishing scientific papers? By making people pay. So we’re back to square one No, for some problems private enterprise is not necessarily the best solution

It would obviously not be for-profit. But it would benefit them indirectly. For investors who invest in biotech, they need to realize that open access is as important as open source is to software. Scientists have failed to overcome the collective action problem

> For investors who invest in biotech, they need to realize that open access is as important as open source is to software.

Open Source is important to software companies only because it lets them build new products cheaply. Most companies don't care, unless they can use it for cheap publicity, or to hurt their competition by making an open-source version of their proprietary product.

OSS definitely did shift the landscape - it almost killed desktop software! There's a reason why technology business love SaaS business model - it's not just the recurring revenue, it's also because it's immune from being killed by open source. You can create a free alternative to any software running on end user's machine, but you can't do that to proprietary code running on servers the service provider owns.

Open access doesn't bring such immediate, direct benefits to research companies - so investors will be less keen to sponsor it. There's just no business model here.

Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#105
post #10

In https://twitter.com/ringo_ring/status/1414342378765307907 she jokingly asks where her Nobel Peace Prize is. Given how often that prize is given out as a bully pulpit to advance a cause, and given the global debt that science owes to her, I think she really does deserve one.

For a woman in the similar age, I would say she is more deserving of Nobel Peace Prize than Malala Yousafzai.

The risk that Malala takes in advocating for women right in Islamic countries is admirable, there is no denying in that. However, her impact are minuscule compared to Alexandra's in the big picture of progression as a human race. Malala's activism has not changed much on the course of women right in the countries where religion governs the lives from family to governance.

Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#106
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The authors write the papers for free, the peer review is done by other scientists for free. Why should this "netflix for science" get to reap the profits by locking it behind a paywall? The reason why predatory publishers still exist is a coordination problem. The journals have prestige built up historically, and the scientists need to publish in prestigious journals for their career. It's a chicken and egg pro…

I'm not sure about how fair the whole system is, but if we assume the papers should be free, then a service where the papers are available is still reasonable to have a small fee. Someone needs to rent and service the servers, update the software, bandwidth costs money, etc..

There's a lot of information, data, and software out there that is available to download for free. Yes there are hosting costs, but there are also people and organizations that are willing to pay them because they believe that it's worth it.

I'm absolutely convinced that if copyrights weren't an issue, there would be enough governments, foundations, universities, corporations, and individuals willing to pay the costs of making scientific publications available to everyone. It wouldn't have to be a paid service.

Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#107

I just noticed something funny: The library of Alexandria was accidentally burned in 48 BC by Julius Ceasar. Here we are in 2021, we now have Alexandra's library, which rivals the first in size and scope, and there are at least as many forces trying to burn it. But fortunately this one is digital and you too can have a copy in your hallway closet for the price of some harddrives and bandwidth. Go make a backup, if yo…

I personally see it as an essential element of preserving democracy going forward. As science becomes a more influential component in public policy (it has arguably become the most influential component over the past 18 months), you end up with a governance style of “the law is whatever science says it should be”. If that science is not available for public scrutiny, then you have the added dynamic of “…and the scien…

I think open and transparent science is really important if we want to adopt evidence based policies in a democratic society.

However, when it comes to law I don’t think there really is a “what science says it should be”. We can use the scientific method and evidence based reasoning to assess the likely outcome of any law or policy change, but figuring out what outcomes were as society are willing to accept given all the reasons trade offs is not a scientific question.

Unfortunately I’m not sure just having open and transparent science will be enough when so many seem uninterested in having a good faith conversation about the evidence and its implications

Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a Netflix but for science information . Pay $15 a month for access to a rolling catalogue of science info.

It's always amusing to see how much people take for granted. $15 is a lot of money for most people. Not to mention that not everyone has access to internation bank accounts.

I think the comment makes fun of the fact that content gets removed from Netflix all the time, so it is not very useful as a reference.

Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#109
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally see it as an essential element of preserving democracy going forward. As science becomes a more influential component in public policy (it has arguably become the most influential component over the past 18 months), you end up with a governance style of “the law is whatever science says it should be”. If that science is not available for public scrutiny, then you have the added dynamic of “…and the scien…

I think open and transparent science is really important if we want to adopt evidence based policies in a democratic society. However, when it comes to law I don’t think there really is a “what science says it should be”. We can use the scientific method and evidence based reasoning to assess the likely outcome of any law or policy change, but figuring out what outcomes were as society are willing to accept given all…

I don’t think there is either. It ignores the fundamentally solipsistic nature of “the truth”, and perhaps more importantly the fact that science can’t tell you what values to have, or what concerns to prioritize. It’s a methodology for refining knowledge, not designing a society.

But in the realm of governance, science is frequently used (or perhaps abused) as an unassailable authority to justify a wide variety of policy positions. I generally consider this to be a governance anti-pattern, but so long as science is being used to justify technocratic policy, it should be available for all of us to make our own judgements about.

Re: Today Sci-Hub is 10 years old. I'll publish 2M new articles to celebrate

#110

Torrent seeding effort: https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/nc27fv/rescue_... All papers on sci-hub are available as torrents from library genesis. The full collection contains 85 million articles (before this announcement), and is about 80TB. If anything ever happens to sci-hub or library genesis, there's enough people out there with backups that a replacement can be set up fairly quickly, albeit without t…

What we really need is an index of these torrents by DOI, and then ultimately by journal and issue. Are you aware of any work to make this happen?
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