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How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

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Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#961
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> practical definition of "left" and "right" is "no hierarchy" vs "hierarchy" Absolutely not: it's the left that's usually the favor of giving more power to the most oppressive and monopolic hierarchy there is, the government, while the right is fighting to dismantle it.

I guess by "the left" you mean Democrats? They're mostly liberals, not leftists, and want to maintain the hierarchies but ease some of the most obvious impacts through regulations. The idea that "left means more government" is also very ahistorical and feels uniquely like a product of modern American political discourse. The origin of the left-right distinction is literally the abolition of feudalism, i.e. replacing…

> The idea that "left means more government" is also very ahistorical and feels uniquely like a product of modern American political discourse. The origin of the left-right distinction is literally the abolition of feudalism, i.e. replacing a fixed hierarchy by birthright with egalitarian democratic elections. By 1776 standards the founding fathers were left-wing radicals. The right would have literally defended the Crown.

Look at how many Black Americans supported the Loyalist side. Many of the American Founding Fathers were slave owners and supported the continuation of slavery. The British Empire promised freedom to American slaves who supported the Empire, and it mostly delivered on that promise. Both sides were very racist, if judged by contemporary standards, but I think there is a decent argument to be made that the racism of the British was on the whole a lot milder than that of the Americans.

The British Empire, including what is now Canada, officially abolished slavery in 1833; the United States would not finally abolish it for another 30+ years. (And it took a bloody civil war for America to do it; the Empire’s abolition of slavery was largely peaceful.) But in actual fact, slavery was de facto rendered legally unenforceable in most of (what is now) Canada by a series of court decisions in the 1790s, so in practice slavery was abolished in Canada over 60 years prior to its abolition in the US.

While there was widespread social discrimination against Black people in 19th and 20th century Canada, it was generally much milder than in much of the United States. The British and Canadian legal systems generally accepted the theoretical legal equality of all citizens regardless of race, even though it often failed to enforce that theoretical equality in practice; by contrast, the legal systems of many American states contained explicit discrimination against Black citizens.

Lynching was a great scourge on American history, of which Black people were the disproportionate (but not exclusive) victims. Many Americans defended lynching as a form of democracy. Judges, law enforcement and prosecutors in the US were very sensitive to public opinion – in part due to their widespread direct election – and were often loathe to properly investigate, prosecute and convict lynching cases if public opinion appeared to approve of the act. Likewise, many American jurors believed that it was appropriate for them to defer to public opinion in deciding cases, and return "not guilty" verdicts in popularly approved lynchings even when the evidence clearly pointed to guilt.

By contrast, the British Empire strongly objected to people taking the law into their own hands, and would-be lynchers in Canada faced far greater odds of successful prosecution for murder (and its then near-mandatory death penalty) than in the US. British culture–including among politicians, law enforcement, prosecutors, judges and jurors–prioritised upholding the rule of law over popular opinion to a much greater extent than American culture did. Due to this cultural difference, lynching was extremely rare in Canadian history – a mere handful of isolated incidents, compared to many thousands in the US.

So, who were the "egalitarians" and "left-wing radicals" in the American Revolution? I think we should seriously consider the possibility that the American Revolution was in fact a reactionary right-wing movement, widely supported by slave owners who lived in fear that the British Empire might forcibly liberate their slaves, and not really a "left-wing" one.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#962
post #930

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older black professionals will empirically speaking also be against transgenderism and homosexual marriage. To those who will inevitably down vote me, I am describing demographically informed stances on arguments not saying what the correct answer is.

Almost. 5-10 years ago, they would be. In 5-10 years, they will almost certainly universally won't, and that's kind of part of my point; On one hand, yes, our "internal" debates on this type of stuff end up being very public, and as such, people who lean in strong directions become visible. But also, we tend to collectively adapt much quicker and much better. I'm pretty comfortable claiming that this will be the case…

Okay... So basically you're claim is to listen to black professionals at some uncertain point in the future at which they'll agree with you? That's very... Woke.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#963
post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two paragraphs from Glen greenwald are my favorite and very relevant to your post: “But they [GCHQ] want you to know that they absolutely adore gay people. In fact, they love the cause of LGBT equality so very much that, beginning on May 17, 2015 — International Day against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia — they started draping their creepy, UFO-style headquarters in the colors of the rainbow flag. The pri…

It’s a strongly expressed opinion that isn’t necessarily supported by evidence. Do you know of any statistical or anecdotal evidence? I personally don’t know anyone who changed their opinion of GCHQ for better because of their support of LGBT. I don’t agree that it’s so easy to draw such conclusions and exclaim “sure they spy on us but look at their flamboyant support of social justice”.

It's just PR. Companies do this too, not just government agencies. You can say that PR doesn't work, but if done properly should at least generate some amount of goodwill.

I mean, if PR didn't work, why would any organization spend money to do it?

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#964
post #65

It definitely seems as though specifying your preferred gender pronouns is no longer optional. This is required "in solidarity". Being an otherwise progressive person, I don't feel great about this and how quickly it happened.

Id recommend getting outside of your social circle/geo a bit more. I’ve never once experienced this in Denver, and have only ever seen gender pronouns be a thing on linkedin.

I’ve experienced that when I went to a LGBT students event with my partner at their university, though that’s an environment where one might expect that to happen.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#965

I think people are over-analysing this issue here at HN. It is far better for upper class to ensure that people discuss and focus on issues like gender and skin colour than the class differences. Hence, they ensured that this is the issue plebs would hear all over on the media and shift their attention from class divides to gender and skin colour.

Yes. Race/gender/sexuality are classes that are fighting to be respected and co-exist. This is an upper class dream. They need to be abolished. My graduate degree is in Equity Studies from the late 90s. I was trained to write what is called "critical race studies" curriculum. We did not call it that - we called it critical theory. My work was on class intervention, specifically being working class in the Academy. My advisor, the late great Roger Simon (who was also born working class) told me there was one book on this subject and it was anecdotal. I was further told that there would be no future for me in the academy if I pursued this.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#966

I think people are over-analysing this issue here at HN. It is far better for upper class to ensure that people discuss and focus on issues like gender and skin colour than the class differences. Hence, they ensured that this is the issue plebs would hear all over on the media and shift their attention from class divides to gender and skin colour.

[deleted]

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#967
post #939

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say those things are “good”, but you offer no evidence of why. How does chastising people for having a “spirit animal” on Twitter help the indigenous people?

No one said anything about chastising people on Twitter except you.

You’re literally chastising here:

> It's good that I understand spirit animals are a sacred, private thing, not something to bandy about or declare for every fleeting interest on Twitter.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#968

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I’ve yet to meet a libertarian who cares about their carbon emissions Something tells me you’ve yet to a meet a libertarian at all. Being held accountable for your pollution of others’ property is a tenant of libertarianism. > Same goes for coronavirus - they don’t care if they spread the disease to others This sounds quite the opposite of libertarianism. Hurting/killing others isn’t part of the ideolo…

> Being held accountable for your pollution of others’ property is a tenant of libertarianism The air we share and breath isn't "others' property" though is it? Like the parent commenter, I've also met and debated many libertarians over the past couple of decades. I've yet to meet one who cares in the least bit about polluting the air I breath. Or if they do claim to care they offer solutions that history has proven…

> The air we share and breath isn't "others' property" though is it?

It is. It can be modeled as shared property. Libertarianism does not imply you don’t believe in commons.

> I've yet to meet one who cares in the least bit about polluting the air I breath.

Well allowing pollution is a violation of property rights. So again, it sounds like you’re just debating people who don’t believe in pollution. You encounter anti-science regardless of market regulation ideology.

> just remove every last regulation and the magic of free markets will make abuse magically disappear. When the opposite is true.

No, a libertarian solution to this problem would be something like cap and trade. Use the government to enforce the protection of the air and then allow the free market for carbon credits to find the best solution.

> The very worst air pollution happened when there were no regulations.

Well China has terrible air pollution and far more regulations than the US. The government regulating every aspect of life is irrelevant if the government isn’t regulating the right things. Some of the worst atrocities in the last couple of centuries were done at the direction of a government authority.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#969

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I’ve yet to meet a libertarian who cares about their carbon emissions Something tells me you’ve yet to a meet a libertarian at all. Being held accountable for your pollution of others’ property is a tenant of libertarianism. > Same goes for coronavirus - they don’t care if they spread the disease to others This sounds quite the opposite of libertarianism. Hurting/killing others isn’t part of the ideolo…

There’s a difference between the libertarian fantasy of personal responsibility and the reality that many people do not behave with the best interest of others in mind. If you are unaware of how resistant self-described “libertarians” are to wearing masks, taking vaccines, or reducing their carbon emissions, then you are the one who is ignorant. If you want to say that those people are not true libertarians, fine, bu…

I am a self-described libertarian and I wear masks, took the vaccines, and am super careful about my carbon emissions.

You’re associating anti-science with libertarians, which is just lazy. Not poisoning and killing others is a pretty core tenant of individual liberty.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#970

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, it appears to be a woke idea that mathematics, science is some human (more specifically, white) invention and we should explore “alternative mathematics” or “alternative science”. Do you have a source for this? I’ve never heard of either of these terms, the closest being the “alternative facts” of one of Trump’s press secretaries.

Seattle, 2019: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/06/ethn-d06.html > School district leaders in Seattle, Washington recently released a proposal to incorporate ethnic studies in the mathematics curriculum at all levels from kindergarten through grade 12. This initiative is part of an ongoing redesign of the district’s entire core subject curricula based on identity politics. The plan will be reviewed and voted…

A fine way to keep the poor poor is teaching them to identify as victims and not learn math. There are always bad ideas that need to be exposed for what they are.
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