Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

501–510 of 1001 posts

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#501

Post by humanrebar »

ukoki wrote: post #180
rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gendered nouns are kind of silly and antiquated when you think about it though, and many languages have a neuter gender too (e.g. German). The "X" suffix is an attempt by younger Spanish speakers to introduce a neuter gender to their native language. English doesn't have gendered nouns, but we do have gendered pronouns, which not all languages have. Chinese doesn't have gendered pronouns, which is why you'll often he…

> Today, young English speakers are trying to popularize "they" as an English neuter pronoun, and it's not too absurd: we already use "they" this way when the gender of the person is unknown. I can understand why 'they' is chosen as a way to introduce neutrality of gender but it pains me that this also introduces of ambiguity of plurality. We _really_ need a gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun. We're lucky t…

Agreed. "Y'all" is being introduced into the language because singular/plural "you" is ambiguous. Regressing on the clarity of "they" is confusing.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#502

Post by tehwebguy »

p0d wrote: post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

> There seems to me to be a ruthlessness to wokeness which I don't understand.

What part of “wokeness” are you talking about specifically?

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#503

Post by tzs »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #201

I don't really see the big issue with Latinx... it seems to me an easy and correct way to refer to latinos and latinas, without saying both, or one or the other, or bringing in gender. Just like we don't have Asianas and Asianos, and we can simply say Asians. It makes less sense to add an s to Latin because Latins refers to something completely different already. Language is constantly changing. As long as references…

> I don't really see the big issue with Latinx... it seems to me an easy and correct way to refer to latinos and latinas, without saying both, or one or the other, or bringing in gender.

The problem I see is that Latinos massively overwhelming don't use "Latinx" for themselves. 76% of adult Latinos say they have never even heard of the term "Latinx" [1]. 20% have heard of it but do not use it. Only 3% use it.

Even among younger Latinos, 18-29, less than 50% have heard of it and only 7% use it.

Among the minority of Latinos who are aware of the term only 10% say it is the preferred term. 50% say the preferred term is Hispanic and 31% say Latino is the preferred term.

It seems pretty arrogant to call a group by a word that most people in the group don't even recognize and most that do recognize it do not consider it the correct word for them.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in...

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#504

Post by rndgermandude »

joconde wrote: post #266
mopsi wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not the whole story. Kids are also very malleable, open to peer pressure and easily assume identities that earn them acceptance by their peers.

Exactly. Transphobia often leads to trauma after getting ostracized by one's peers. I've never seen evidence of "wokeness" being nearly as nasty. You don't get bullied or singled out for not being trans.

I don't know if that's true anymore entirely, in a broader context.

(I am sure that trans people far more often have far worse experiences still)

I've heard stories, both online and from my sisters (who live in a pretty woke neighborhood and have a pretty woke circle of friends) about kids and teens who were "criticized" for being "too gender conforming" by "concerned" parents and friends alike. And stories about teens and grownups being ostracized and called names for politely rejecting trans or same sex people flirtations[1].

While I don't think these anecdotes are outright bullying, of course, it shows a certain direction, and it shows certain parental and peer group pressures building up in certain cohorts of society. All this can cause a certain amount of trauma and confusion[0], especially in kids and teens who haven't had a chance to explore and form their personality and identity on their own to a sufficient degree yet, when e.g. you as a kid get a sense that your parents are unhappy about you or when friends and peers call or at least insinuate you are "a bit of a" transphobe or homophobe because your brain is interested in the opposite sex and opposite sex genitalia.

[0] I am NOT saying all trans people are just confused. But I do think that some kids and younger teens are in fact just confused. Well, all kids and teens are constantly confused about everything, that's part of growing up, which is to a great part trial and error and trying to make sense of things and experiences. But this kind of confusion I am talking about relates to the old stories of "My parents wanted a boy and only got me, a girl, so I tried to be as much a boy as I could growing up trying to please them", but with a new slant to it, that might possibly involve hormone therapy at worst.

[1] One more slightly related anecdote, I am directly biased here: When I was like 17 or 18 (still in school, so, long ago), I was at a party and had a guy hit on me. I am a guy myself, but straight. Fine no worries, I told him nicely I am not interested. He (admittedly quite drunk) would then follow me around for some time, trying to convince me with zingers like "only a man knows how to suck another man's cock to perfection, I can show you, follow me!". The following days people would ask me why I "hate gays". What happened after that guy struck out with me is that he went around telling people I am a "gay hater". It took quite some effort to explain myself to people that I in fact do not hate gays and am not "grossed out" by gays, etc, just do not find them to be sexually attractive partners for me personally. I am sure some of my peers still thought I am a rampant homophobe afterwards. The more you defend yourself, the more guilty you look and all that. I am convinced this affected some of my friendships negatively and certainly messed with my mind[2]. I dread to imagine what it's like growing up now in some hyper-woke community, socialized by shit storms and parents and teachers who think math is racist and it's OK to punch "nazis".

[2] One openly bisexual girl from my grade remarked to me "Now you got a glimpse at what it is like for me a lot of the time". True that, only a glimpse, but bad enough for me already.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#505

Post by karmelapple »

ukoki wrote: post #180
rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gendered nouns are kind of silly and antiquated when you think about it though, and many languages have a neuter gender too (e.g. German). The "X" suffix is an attempt by younger Spanish speakers to introduce a neuter gender to their native language. English doesn't have gendered nouns, but we do have gendered pronouns, which not all languages have. Chinese doesn't have gendered pronouns, which is why you'll often he…

> Today, young English speakers are trying to popularize "they" as an English neuter pronoun, and it's not too absurd: we already use "they" this way when the gender of the person is unknown. I can understand why 'they' is chosen as a way to introduce neutrality of gender but it pains me that this also introduces of ambiguity of plurality. We _really_ need a gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun. We're lucky t…

Get thon to Dinosaur Comics, which has discussed this before: https://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2079

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#506

Post by goodpoint »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #135
invalidOrTaken wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To an extent left and right are asymmetrical---leftist groups tend to be groups organized around being leftist as their main purpose, while "rightist" groups (churches, police unions, gun enthusiasts) tend to be rightist incidentally . Neo Nazis feel like the exception that proves the rule.

[flagged]

> The idea that Nazis are right-wing is also kind of a modern conceit

This is absurd. Not only the nazi mindset fits squarely into all the far-right / ultranationalist ideas, but the nazi party even made an alliance with the fascist party in Italy.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#507

Post by slibhb »

I think "wokeness" comes not so much from "safetyism" but from a generation who were educated to be critical of their own society. They were raised and educated by ex-hippies, who had successfully critiqued the post-war US. I think this was a pedagogical crime (raising children to be critical). Every generation is supposed to critique its predecessor but teaching critique to children from a young age robbed them of the opportunity to level a critique from their own, unique perspective.

This is why "wokeness" strikes so many as performative: it's desperately trying to recreate the greatest hits of the 20th century protest movements. An example of this is schools having scheduled protests (say, for gun control). Ironically, in this situation, the only genuine protest is to refuse to attend the protest.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#508

Post by yodsanklai »

netrus wrote: post #328
tablespoon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It definitely seems as though specifying your preferred gender pronouns is no longer optional. This is required "in solidarity". Being an otherwise progressive person, I don't feel great about this and how quickly it happened. > Id recommend getting outside of your social circle/geo a bit more. I’ve never once experienced this in Denver, and have only ever seen gender pronouns be a thing on linkedin. I've started…

I would love to have more pronouns in signatures. I cannot count the times I used Google picture search to figure out the gender of students from cultures I am not well educated about (Chinese, Indian, Arabic, Vietnamese ...). Many foreign students adopted a western name to mitigate such problems. Yikes!

Never found this to be an issue. When in doubt, simply don't use the pronoun and use their first name to refer to them.

> Many foreign students adopted a western name to mitigate such problems

It has more to do with pronunciation.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#509

Post by swayvil »

kortilla wrote: post #458
lemmsjid wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer to your question is actually answered in your first paragraph. In the same way that you believe all Christians shouldn’t be judged by those who haven’t “practiced what they’ve preached”, consider that your understanding of “woke” people might be tainted by the fact that whatever media you are consuming might be focusing on the ones who also don’t practice what they preach. In other words, any movem…

But the core principles of being woke require ruthlessness (“silence is violence”, etc).

Interesting.

If you are silent then you are not explicitly with us.

And if you are not explicitly with us then you are guilty of violence. That is to say, against us.

Thus "silence is violence" = "if you are not with us then you are against us".

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#510

Post by UncleMeat »

FiberBundle wrote: post #487
jasonlotito wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you suggest that wasn’t tried before? Conversations, education, peaceful protests, etc. None worked as well as this. If someone is punching you in the face every single day, and nothing you try that’s non violent works, but suddenly you get results when you push back, wouldn’t you employ that method? Sure, it hurts the person punching you, but they were punching you.

Well a good first step would be to accept that societal changes take time to develop. We have made huge progress in areas such as women's rights. Asian immigrants, which were severely discriminated against in the past, have achieved tremendous upward mobility in our society. There are many other areas in which our society has progressed. All of this progress has occurred without any of the radical discrimatory tactic…

> We have made huge progress in areas such as women's rights.

And suffragettes put bombs in mailboxes and threw their bodies under horses. 2nd wave feminists were far more "anti-man" than modern feminists (there aren't too many political lesbians nowadays). The "peaceful protest" that people recall so fondly rarely was so peaceful but is instead used as a cudgel to resist all change today by claiming that activists aren't "doing it right".

Post reply on HN