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Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#221
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conclusion that cloth masks are ineffective against viruses with an airborne spread, while a properly worn n95 mask does provide real protection is hardly premature. Here's the quote above from one of the scientists on President Biden's Covid advisory board in context: >Needless to say, masking is political hot button beyond anything I've ever seen in public health. At the same time i think we've all done a disse…

> The conclusion that cloth masks are ineffective against viruses with an airborne spread, while a properly worn n95 mask does provide real protection is hardly premature. You're just asserting it to be true, so yes, it is. > I've been really disappointed with my colleagues in public health for not being more clear about what can masking can do or not do. I agree with this, but probably not for the reason you're sayi…

> You're just asserting it to be true, so yes, it is.

I'm not the one who asserted it. One of the scientists on President Biden's Covid advisory board did.

Unfortunately, many of us on the left are no more willing to accept this truth than those on the right are willing to listen when President Trump tells them they should get vaccinated.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#222
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's correct; see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28407881 for the argument in more detail.

My argument and your argument are seemingly unrelated. That means that the full matrix of situations are available: I'm correct and you're correct. I'm correct and you're wrong. I'm wrong and you're correct, and finally I'm wrong and you're wrong. ---------- So lets just try again from the top. The study shows that an 8-week mask-awareness campaign in Bangladesh across 300 villages (+300 "control" villages 2+km away…

Oh, I think we totally agree on the facts of what happened! Except that I don't think it was an 11% decrease in covid cases, but a slower increase that ended up 11% lower.

But you said it was "pretty outstanding IMO" and I think the opposite: I think it shows that an increase of 29 percentage points in mask usage had so little effect on covid risk that it could only be reliably detected with sophisticated statistics and experimental design, and even then only at a group level, not an individual level.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#223
post #216
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the study: >The intervention increased proper mask-wearing from 13.3% in control villages (N=806,547 observations) to 42.3% in treatment villages (N=797,715 observations)... Physical distancing increased from 24.1% in control villages to 29.2% in treatment villages Mask wearing increased 218% while distancing increased by 21%. I agree this is not proof specifically about masks, the study is about specific public…

> Mask wearing increased 218% while distancing increased by 21%. You can't just compare "percentage change" of two wildly different things, and leap to the conclusion that the magnitude of change is causal. It begs the entire question: if physical distancing works well , and mask wearing does not work , you could increase mask wearing by whatever percentage you like, and a smaller change in physical distancing would…

> It begs the entire question: if physical distancing works well, and mask wearing does not work (...)

There's nothing in the study remotely suggesting that masks have no effect. Instead the study shows that mask wearing combined with other factors have a clear and unquestionable correlation with reduce Covid spread.

Even if you wish to nitpick the contribution of mask wearing in the reduction in Covid spread, it makes absolutely no sense at all to jump to the conclusion that surgical masks have no impact in spreading airborne pathogens as that's precisely what surgical masks do and the whole reason why they are extensively used by the medical community for decades.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 0.6% will die (on average over all age groups). 99.4% will have an immunity for half a year.

Only 472,497,943 can die from it then. Adding on all the other impact of creating much larger pools of folks losing spouses, parents, caregivers, along with everyone else who's loss will cause lasting and life-changing harm. And then there's long Covid. . . So yeah, sheesh. It's hardly any worse than taking out several nations worth of people with VX.

Everyone will die. Eventually. Those over 60 sooner than those in their twenties. Neither tests nor masks will change this fact.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 472,497,943 can die from it then. Adding on all the other impact of creating much larger pools of folks losing spouses, parents, caregivers, along with everyone else who's loss will cause lasting and life-changing harm. And then there's long Covid. . . So yeah, sheesh. It's hardly any worse than taking out several nations worth of people with VX.

Everyone will die. Eventually. Those over 60 sooner than those in their twenties. Neither tests nor masks will change this fact.

>Neither tests nor masks will change this fact.

According to the original article, masks do change this fact.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone will die. Eventually. Those over 60 sooner than those in their twenties. Neither tests nor masks will change this fact.

>Neither tests nor masks will change this fact. According to the original article, masks do change this fact.

Please, read the article again. Masks might affect COVID-19 spread. They don't prevent people from dying eventually.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Neither tests nor masks will change this fact. According to the original article, masks do change this fact.

Please, read the article again. Masks might affect COVID-19 spread. They don't prevent people from dying eventually.

> They don't prevent people from dying eventually.

The paper does not say this. It shows an 11% reduction in spread in the group that was encouraged to wear surgical masks. Masks were not mandated, only encouraged. It also shows that 5 months after the researchers stopped encouraging mask-wearing, compliance dropped by 14%. So masks reduce the spread, and encouraging people to wear them leads to higher compliance.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#228
post #223
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mask wearing increased 218% while distancing increased by 21%. You can't just compare "percentage change" of two wildly different things, and leap to the conclusion that the magnitude of change is causal. It begs the entire question: if physical distancing works well , and mask wearing does not work , you could increase mask wearing by whatever percentage you like, and a smaller change in physical distancing would…

> It begs the entire question: if physical distancing works well, and mask wearing does not work (...) There's nothing in the study remotely suggesting that masks have no effect. Instead the study shows that mask wearing combined with other factors have a clear and unquestionable correlation with reduce Covid spread. Even if you wish to nitpick the contribution of mask wearing in the reduction in Covid spread, it mak…

> Instead the study shows that mask wearing combined with other factors have a clear and unquestionable correlation with reduce Covid spread.

The study shows that cloth masks (combined with other factors) have no effect on seroprevalence. It shows that surgical masks (combined with other factors) has a small-but-significant effect on seroprevalence. The confidence interval on the surgical mask group overlaps zero, so you can't rule out "no effect". At these small effect sizes, you also can't rule out the role of confounders -- it's possible that behavior change could explain all of it.

In short, neither result is "clear and unquestionable". An accurate description of the results are that they are "weak and debatable".

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#229
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The masked group might just take longer to get there. That's not a bad thing. Remember "flatten the curve"? Avoiding everyone from getting it isn't the goal. Preventing the collapse of the healthcare system is.

>That's not a bad thing. Remember "flatten the curve"? That isn't how exponential growth works unfortunately. As long as the exponent is greater than 1 eventually you will get a large peak.

Only if a population is infinite.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#230
post #228
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It begs the entire question: if physical distancing works well, and mask wearing does not work (...) There's nothing in the study remotely suggesting that masks have no effect. Instead the study shows that mask wearing combined with other factors have a clear and unquestionable correlation with reduce Covid spread. Even if you wish to nitpick the contribution of mask wearing in the reduction in Covid spread, it mak…

> Instead the study shows that mask wearing combined with other factors have a clear and unquestionable correlation with reduce Covid spread. The study shows that cloth masks (combined with other factors) have no effect on seroprevalence. It shows that surgical masks (combined with other factors) has a small-but-significant effect on seroprevalence. The confidence interval on the surgical mask group overlaps zero, so…

> The study shows that cloth masks (combined with other factors) have no effect on seroprevalence.

No, not really. If you happen to take a few minutes to read the paper, you'll notice that the study was conducted with a type of cloth mask produced locally which had a filtration efficiency rate of around 37% with a standard deviation of 6%, compared with the surgical mask's filtration efficiency of 95%.

The study also points out that the filtration efficiency of surgical masks washed 10 times with soap was 76%, and that they evaluated a type of cloth mask which can achieve a filtration efficiency of 60%.

Thus, what the study actually states is that they observed that wearing poor quality cloth masks showed high-variance results whose confidence interval includes the point estimate for surgical masks.

In other words, the study actually pointed out that using a specific type of cloth mask produced locally and which was known to have poor filtering efficiency had an effect that lies somewhere between being as good as surgical masks and not wearing anything at all.

> The confidence interval on the surgical mask group overlaps zero, so you can't rule out "no effect".

No, not really. That's not how confidence intervals work. At most, the only conclusion you can objectively draw from the data is that even though the positive effect of wearing surgical masks in the past study is clear and beyond doubt, further studies would be required to increase the resolution of that estimate.

In fact, if you happen to read the study you'll notice that the conclution states quite clearly that "We found clear evidence that surgical masks are effective in reducing symptomatic seropreva- lence of SARS-CoV-2; while cloth masks clearly reduce symptoms, we cannot reject that they have zero or only a small impact on symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections (perhaps reducing symptoms of other respiratory diseases)."

Also, your comments feel like a mix of moving the goalpost combined with a considerable amount of cherry-picking. It's a widely known fact that the whole point of wearing masks is primarily to reduce the viral load emitted by the wearer, and a minor benefit is to reduce our own exposure to the virus. Thus I feel that you're trying to misrepresent the whole point of wearing masks by trying to frame it as a "seroprevalence" issue. That was never, at any point in time, the reason why we have the social obligation to wear face masks and respect social distancing.

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