How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life? • Hacker News Board

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#51

Post by rvz » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:38 AM UTC

belltaco wrote: post #45

rvz wrote: post #9

Well given that they have to redefine terms under new names and to create a newspeak for all of this, it was not long until it had spread unchallenged from the social-sciences classrooms in universities to the workplace and we now see rejected concepts that were left in the past to later resurface under a redefinition under newspeak. A great way to confuse the general public and push an agenda to create a culture of…

>A great way to confuse the general public and push an agenda to create a culture of silencing anyone opposed to view points someone disagrees with. Can you give me some examples of the viewpoints you're referring to here?

Plenty of examples in the article if you have already read it.

Example of enforcing this with cancellations:

> Even as students began scouring the words of academics, administrators and fellow students for microaggressions, the oppressive slights embedded in everyday speech, and found them, complacency ruled.

which was later enforced...

> When invited speeches from people such as Christine Lagarde, then head of the International Monetary Fund, were cancelled after student activists accused her of complicity in “imperialist and patriarchal systems”

Also...

> James Bennet, who resigned as editorial-page editor of the New York Times after one such row, now works for The Economist; he was not involved in this article.

The 'row' in question [0] lead to the editor's resignation [1] because he defended it.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jun/03/new-york-times...

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/business/media/james-benn...

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#52

Post by babyshake » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:49 AM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #46

babyshake wrote: post #28

It definitely seems as though specifying your preferred gender pronouns is no longer optional. This is required "in solidarity". Being an otherwise progressive person, I don't feel great about this and how quickly it happened.

Can you elaborate? Pronouns have never been "optional" for casual conversation. You're saying you now feel, I guess, compelled to declare them or something? Or are you mad that people expect you to use pronouns they want you to use? What's the beef here? This kinda sounds like knee-jerk conservatism. It's different and new and forces you to learn new habits (true), and therefore it's bad and an erosion of civil socie…

Specifically I meant specifying your own preferred gender pronouns in certain contexts. When enough of your peers do it, it feels downright strange to not do it even if you don't imagine anyone would have any problem deducing your gender and you wouldn't feel offended if they did happen to use the wrong gender for you. Of course it is completely fine for people to share preferred prounouns. But as pg has said the problem is with the things you not allowed to say, or alternately the things you are required to say and/or do.

Being required to, say, share drinking fountains or pools with people of another race should not be compared to this. One is about allowing people to co-exist with you, the other is about complying with a strongly encouraged communal display of ideology. There are obvious comparisons to make but you can use your imagination about what those are.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#53

Post by newacct583 » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:06 AM UTC

babyshake wrote: post #52

newacct583 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? Pronouns have never been "optional" for casual conversation. You're saying you now feel, I guess, compelled to declare them or something? Or are you mad that people expect you to use pronouns they want you to use? What's the beef here? This kinda sounds like knee-jerk conservatism. It's different and new and forces you to learn new habits (true), and therefore it's bad and an erosion of civil socie…

Specifically I meant specifying your own preferred gender pronouns in certain contexts. When enough of your peers do it, it feels downright strange to not do it even if you don't imagine anyone would have any problem deducing your gender and you wouldn't feel offended if they did happen to use the wrong gender for you. Of course it is completely fine for people to share preferred prounouns. But as pg has said the pro…

> Being required to, say, share drinking fountains or pools with people of another race should not be compared to this.

Indeed. And I didn't. I said "negro". Generations of people genuinely thought that was a neutral term. They were pissed as all fuck when all of a sudden it became a symbol of centuries of oppression. And they used language exactly like yours to express their exasperation. But the words changed anyway. And we all got over it, and civil society didn't dissolve.

And at the end of the process, most of us look back and think of it as largely a good thing that we went and, well, cancelled that old word as a symbol. The new one is better, simply because it was born out of the self-determinism of the oppressed.

Which is to say: get over yourself and declare your pronouns. (I'm a he/him, FWIW). Your grandkids will be ashamed that you fought it.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#54

Post by andreskytt » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

enkid wrote: post #48

Barrin92 wrote: post #7

I'm glad that the Economist points out at the end that 'wokeness' has become a favorite of business, and the reason is pretty obvious, as a movement it's self-defeating because all identitarian politics eventually ends in infighting, with its subjective, choice and preference based worldview it's actually ill-equipped to move anything. It might exist in academia or PR departments or journalism or facebook pages and t…

Identitarian does not mean what you think it means. In fact, it's basically the exact opposite. I also have no idea what you mean when you say it has no ability to change anything. Are you talking about identity politics? Politics that specifically aim to better the position of people in certain subgroups? Because there are many political movements that have been wildly successful in doing that, women's suffrage, the…

I don’t think these movements have been based on identity but rather the concept of lacking something. This group lacks X, thus we should seek to give them X. But X does not necessarily equal the identity.

What I find heartbreaking in all this identity issue is the ever-increasing number of dimensions. Simple math shows that at about 20 or so there’s going to be about one gender identity per person or two. Which is absolutely correct as all people are unique and beautiful in their own ways. But instead of being able to freely move across the spectrum that is being a “man” or a “woman”, each person would be locked in their own tiny identity. And, as we see, crossing the identity barriers is hard for many many reasons. I can’t see this increasing happiness of people. Everyone is or should be looking for their identity for most of their lives, creating additional barriers on this journey is unlikely to be beneficial.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#55

Post by spfzero » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 5:06 AM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #31

serverholic wrote: post #10

I think this is the result of the gradual femininization of our culture. It started with the feminist/gender-studies types and slowly caught on. Not because people necessarily wanted to change, but cancel culture makes it so that you can't risk nonconforming. At first it was little things like switching to softer language and giving kids participation trophies so that they don't feel bad. Now it's spread to the point…

> Now it's spread to the point that they feel the need to invent words like Latinx just in case a couple of latinos feel left out. It's worse than that: surveys of actual Hispanic people report support for the word "latinx" in the single-digit percentages. The word is solely about making the moral crusaders themselves feel holier. No actual social problem is solved by shoving this word into our lexicon.

The Saint George’s love their dragon.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#56

Post by _Nat_ » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #53

babyshake wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically I meant specifying your own preferred gender pronouns in certain contexts. When enough of your peers do it, it feels downright strange to not do it even if you don't imagine anyone would have any problem deducing your gender and you wouldn't feel offended if they did happen to use the wrong gender for you. Of course it is completely fine for people to share preferred prounouns. But as pg has said the pro…

> Being required to, say, share drinking fountains or pools with people of another race should not be compared to this. Indeed. And I didn't. I said "negro". Generations of people genuinely thought that was a neutral term. They were pissed as all fuck when all of a sudden it became a symbol of centuries of oppression. And they used language exactly like yours to express their exasperation. But the words changed anywa…

Sounds like you're describing the word "Negro" as a [scapegoat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat): it was cast as a symbol of evil so that it could be canceled as such.

I guess that's a way to see the basic tension there: some folks might argue that using scapegoats can help society move on, while others might object on the basis that the goat wasn't actually evil.

Alternatively, we can see switching away from the word "Negro" as a rebranding effort, to retire prior literature and reduce historical associations.

Either way.. I guess that what can seem weird about such social-engineering maneuvers is that they don't make any sense if we assume that people are ideal logical-thinkers; mechanically, they're more like side-channel attacks or emotional manipulation. And.. I guess folks might vary in how agreeable they might find well-intentioned emotional-manipulation.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#57

Post by neonate » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 5:49 AM UTC

http://web.archive.org/web/20210904034230/https://www.econom...

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#58

Post by belltaco » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 5:51 AM UTC

rvz wrote: post #51

belltaco wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A great way to confuse the general public and push an agenda to create a culture of silencing anyone opposed to view points someone disagrees with. Can you give me some examples of the viewpoints you're referring to here?

Plenty of examples in the article if you have already read it. Example of enforcing this with cancellations: > Even as students began scouring the words of academics, administrators and fellow students for microaggressions, the oppressive slights embedded in everyday speech, and found them, complacency ruled. which was later enforced... > When invited speeches from people such as Christine Lagarde, then head of the I…

It's neither new nor exclusive to liberals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Chicks_controversy

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#59

Post by RappingBoomer » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 5:59 AM UTC

one theory is that this is a product of the capital vs labor struggle...as madison wrote, "divide et impera" is how the elite can rule america...wokeness might be considered a divide et impera tactic to turn labor factions against each other, thus empowering elites, i.e., Capital

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#60

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 5:59 AM UTC

babyshake wrote: post #52

newacct583 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? Pronouns have never been "optional" for casual conversation. You're saying you now feel, I guess, compelled to declare them or something? Or are you mad that people expect you to use pronouns they want you to use? What's the beef here? This kinda sounds like knee-jerk conservatism. It's different and new and forces you to learn new habits (true), and therefore it's bad and an erosion of civil socie…

Specifically I meant specifying your own preferred gender pronouns in certain contexts. When enough of your peers do it, it feels downright strange to not do it even if you don't imagine anyone would have any problem deducing your gender and you wouldn't feel offended if they did happen to use the wrong gender for you. Of course it is completely fine for people to share preferred prounouns. But as pg has said the pro…

[deleted]