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Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

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Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#151

Post by davesque »

karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

I think this could be exactly the correct definition of burnout. I'm sure a lot of us care about a lot of things in our lives... until we realize that no one else does.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#152

Post by throw394024 »

S_A_P wrote: post #54

I had a bad case of burnout 2 years ago. I think for me it wasn’t that I was overwhelmed or otherwise overworked. I was working a lot of hours, but that didn’t bother me either. What got under my skin was that I understood the systemic reasons for all the fires we were having to put out were never going to change. So the burnout was the feeling that I was unable to do anything but tread water.

100% agree. It's about agency. Most companies I've worked at haven't strictly followed agile, and definitely haven't allowed devs much say in prioritizing bugs.

My current thought is product companies might have more of a vested interest in quality, but I'm not positive.

Does anyone have any suggestions here? The only thing I've seen is most people move into management, which I'm thinking is likely the only way out from the long hours and homework/almost constant self-study.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#153

Post by ineedasername »

tharkun__ wrote: post #144
ineedasername wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a union dictates how the work is supposed to be done I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. How do unions dictate the way you perform your duties?

For example, the union could have negotiated rules around an appropriate duration of working hours as well as the start and end times of such. E.g. unionized employees shall not have to work "after hours". Working hours are 9-5. Anything outside of that is paid at 1.5x. Employees can't work from home so as not to infringe on 'family life'. And suddenly the union has made me very uninterested in performing my duties a…

And suddenly the union has made me very uninterested in performing my duties at that company at all. I want to be able to work with flexible hours

I was in a union for a little bit, and there was a set process for this. You simply requested & justified a modified schedule, and so long as your boss signed off that it wouldn't negatively impact operations, it was all fine. Not all unions may do this though.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#154

Post by giantg2 »

runawaybottle wrote: post #123
giantg2 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Burnout is caused by working hard at something for a long time and not having it pay off." I agree but would add "lack of hope" to that. I have no hope that my job/career will get better.

I’ll add a small insidious realization of what stress is. It’s one thing to work hard and feel tired after working hard, the causality is natural. It’s when you feel fatigue before you even start the work. Why am I tired before I even begin? That to me it’s a dead giveaway something is wrong. How do you solve that? We mythologized grit , the strength to overcome this preemptive fatigue. But even that, is fatiguing. L…

If it's something you love doing, then it energizes you. When you see your job as hopeless, that's where the pre-existing tiredness comes from. Just like the dread of even logging on.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#155

Post by 8note »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #60
karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

"Burnout is caused by working hard at something for a long time and not having it pay off." Exactly. Yet most people mistakenly attribute the feeling to other causes. OP quote what people think are the causes of their own burnout, and took those at face value. When you're burnt out, you're probably not in a good state to determine the cause.

I certainly get burned out from things that pay off, too

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#156

Post by aceazzameen »

karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

This is me. I just quit my job this week to take time off because of burnout. It's exactly because I worked like a dog and haven't had a payoff in years. I want to make the best product/feature that I can. I want to give it my all. But I don't have control over the areas where things go wrong. Not having a win - and missing wins from my past - has led me to just take a break from it all.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#157

Post by emeraldd »

karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

> Burnout is caused by working hard at something for a long time and not having it pay off.

You know, this might have something to do with why I gravitate towards doing "user" (really other devs since I tend to work on internal tools more than outside facing products) support type stuff. Devs trying to figure out why something isn't working are usually grateful when someone can help them get things working so they can do their job.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#158

Post by sjs7007 »

noirbot wrote: post #107
sjs7007 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then really it's a failure of management at your company, not the limited vacation system.

Sure, but so is letting "unlimited" just turn into looting by the privileged or some sort of toxic "my manager won't let me take more than a week off". Which is what I've been getting at. People love to condemn Unlimited PTO as some sort of toxic trap, and it certainly can be, but it all comes down to if your HR department is competent and cares. If your management is bad, having fixed PTO isn't going to save you fro…

That's just because it's more common the case that employees get screwed by the company than other way round. One easy way to make unlimited really unlimited is by having a reasonable number of mandatory days off like 4 weeks. Then I'll believe unlimited PTO.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#159

Post by thrav »

t0mbstone wrote: post #143
karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

What about people who build tons of successful things and get win after win after win, but are still feeling burned out? For me, a "win" would be accomplishing something and then getting to bask in the success and take a fucking break and do nothing for a year. Shoot, even being able to take a break for a month after busting my butt on a project for a year would be nice. But nope. You never really "finish" anything i…

I think your last paragraph is the key here. You “got the win” without actually getting the win. Instead of praise, reward, recognition — you got more work.

I think the point above is that the win needs to be material beyond your own recognition.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#160

Post by beebmam »

karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

There's one job in the US that is currently experiencing extremely high rates of burnout.

ICU Nurses.

What can we learn about burnout from them in this current situation?

I don't think "Burnout is caused by working hard at something for a long time and not having it pay off." applies for them in at all. They are constantly saving lives and constantly seeing the positive results of their actions.

My first guess is that there's just too much work for them in the regions where ICUs which are overburdened. Many ICUs have had to up their nurse-to-patient ratio above 1:2, often to 1:3 and in some places even 1:5 or 1:6. Moreover, many ICU nurses are forced into picking up extra shifts.

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