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Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

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Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#81

Post by josh2600 »

karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

Great post. An addendum: people still burnout even when the org is succeeding (shipping products, hitting liquidity, etc.).

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#82

Post by sjs7007 »

noirbot wrote: post #63
sjs7007 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's that usually I can just take off a Friday or a Monday here and there without any issue as long as I give a bit of notice. I have fixed number of days but still can essentially do this. > Functionally now though, I have to file paperwork with 3 different groups to have someone approve even a single day off so they can make sure I'm not going over the number of days off that I have in accordance with my level an…

I'm sure it's possible to have a system where this is easy, but giving HR more things to track to prove their value to the company does tend to make no incentive for them to make it trivial. I'm sure systems exist for that that we could buy, but we didn't, so we don't, so someone's got some ad-hoc something in some Oracle DB somewhere, and now taking vacation is an added hassle for my already overworked manager.

Then really it's a failure of management at your company, not the limited vacation system.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#83

Post by labster »

beerandt wrote: post #35
eatonphil wrote: post #3

> What do we do? Well, root out the real causes of burnout. If it’s not those top workplace issues, it may very well be the burn of extended, heightened stress. For employees surveyed, flexible work hours and mental health support were more popular than even a four-day work week or unlimited PTO. The point then is lots of professionals like their actual work, they just don’t like the restrictions and environment. Giv…

Unlimited PTO is crazy to me. It takes the principles of spelled-out employment terms and throws them in the trash. The "flexible hours" policy was bad enough at my last job. Wildly varying interpretations between different managers and department heads under the same roof.

My last job implemented an unlimited PTO policy. In 2020, I took about 7 days off, and worked at least 20 days on weekends. With the increased responsibilities, there just wasn’t any time that was good to leave… until I left for good. It was definitely a factor in my current burnout.

The funny thing was before the VCs bought the company, I had two weeks but in practice could ask the CTO for as much time as I wanted. But unlimited PTO functionally meant negative days off, because performance would decrease when you left. Setting a minimum PTO might help.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#84

Post by f69281c »

karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

>You can work like a dog to release a feature, and if the feature does what it was meant to do, and you get recognized for your contribution, how hard you worked doesn't matter as much. You are energized, excited to be part of a great team, ready to move on to the next stunning victory.

Gross. All that overtime is systematically stamping all the things that are good for the soul out of life. I'm not going to cheer it on because a feature works.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#85

Post by stuff4ben »

awsthro00945 wrote: post #31

Not only is it not the answer, vacation can actually be a contributor to burnout, IME. In my current role, taking PTO is a legitimate punishment . If I take a day off, there is nobody else on my team who has capacity to pick up my work in my absence. When I return from PTO, not only do I now have double the amount of work to catch up on, but I also have 15 emails from angry managers upset that I didn't get to their r…

If you can't afford to take a day off, then that's on you my friend. The people on your team can take up your slack if you let them. I work for someone just like you. He hoards all of the meetings and knowledge and "power" (for lack of a better word). When he goes on PTO, things halt when they shouldn't. Me and others on my squad can pick up the slack. But gatekeeping and knowledge-hoarding prevent us from helping out. Not a big deal for me, but I'm sure my squad-lead will get burned out eventually. I have warned him about that in our 1:1's, but nothings changed...

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#86

Post by rahimnathwani »

tinyhouse wrote: post #80
rahimnathwani wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Burnout is caused by working hard at something for a long time and not having it pay off." Exactly. Yet most people mistakenly attribute the feeling to other causes. OP quote what people think are the causes of their own burnout, and took those at face value. When you're burnt out, you're probably not in a good state to determine the cause.

Speak for yourself. Sorry for being blunt, but you clearly know very little about burnout (good for you). If people say that they are burned out because of a bad manager, believe them instead of saying they don't know what they are talking about. There are many reasons for burnout. Working on things that don't pay off is just one of them.

"you clearly know very little about burnout"

You may disagree with my statement about the cause of burnout, and you may be correct about that.

But it's unlikely you know enough about me to judge how much I know (or don't know) about burnout.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#87

Post by philmcp »

I run https://4dayweek.io and during the time I spent researching companies, it blew my mind how awful the vacation policy is in some companies (especially the US)

i.e. 10 days vacation shouldn't be celebrated as a benefit.

Vacation isn't everything though; there have been some studies which show the positive effect of a vacation quickly disappears when work resumes.

What we really need (imo) is a shorter, more focused work week (with less fluff + meetings) i.e. a 4 day work week

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#88

Post by f69281c »

beerandt wrote: post #35
eatonphil wrote: post #3

> What do we do? Well, root out the real causes of burnout. If it’s not those top workplace issues, it may very well be the burn of extended, heightened stress. For employees surveyed, flexible work hours and mental health support were more popular than even a four-day work week or unlimited PTO. The point then is lots of professionals like their actual work, they just don’t like the restrictions and environment. Giv…

Unlimited PTO is crazy to me. It takes the principles of spelled-out employment terms and throws them in the trash. The "flexible hours" policy was bad enough at my last job. Wildly varying interpretations between different managers and department heads under the same roof.

Unlimited PTO means there's nothing to cash out at the end of the year if you took 0 days of PTO.

It also reminds me of the old negotiating tactic - never be the first one to offer up a number.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#89

Post by [deleted] »

dopidopHN wrote: post #47
suzzer99 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. We need European-style month-long vacations in the US. And sabbaticals every few years. Also we should start looking at 36 and 32-hour workweeks. We're 20x more productive than 40 years ago, yet still work the same hours or more for pay increases that barely keep up with inflation.

As a European living in the US since a decade. It starts to impact my mental health. I went from 8 weeks / years to 4 or 5. Currently 3. Ha. I cannot recharge the same way ( meaning : travel for weeks at a time, or chill hard for 2 weeks in a row ) It’s flexible all right. But I feel like I’m always working somehow. Work is near, lurking. I’m nursing a nice little depression that I feel a road trip would cure easily.…

[deleted]

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#90

Post by le-mark »

tinyhouse wrote: post #80
rahimnathwani wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Burnout is caused by working hard at something for a long time and not having it pay off." Exactly. Yet most people mistakenly attribute the feeling to other causes. OP quote what people think are the causes of their own burnout, and took those at face value. When you're burnt out, you're probably not in a good state to determine the cause.

Speak for yourself. Sorry for being blunt, but you clearly know very little about burnout (good for you). If people say that they are burned out because of a bad manager, believe them instead of saying they don't know what they are talking about. There are many reasons for burnout. Working on things that don't pay off is just one of them.

Can confirm, recently went from a great manager who always had our backs and celebrated our successes to one who offers zero support, plenty of blame and zero recognition. I’ve been surprised how devastating it’s been.
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