Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit • Hacker News Board

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#181

Post by gambiting » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

pedrosorio wrote: post #142

plutonorm wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very very hard to do if you want to go from software engineer to manager. Almost impossible - I have tried sending out hundreds of resumes over periods of years. You need to be promoted internally - but that is impossible unless you know someone. The internal job postings are a sham. I absolutely HATE software development but have been stuck in this role for 15 years and 5 years since I genuinely started loat…

Is this a UK thing? I think I’ve read this before on HN, “getting promoted from software engineer to manager is hard”. It seems to be a cultural thing. In the US, the manager is not seen as “superior” necessarily and many people actively do not want to be promoted (and a bunch of kids pouring into the field every year) so getting a management position is not particularly hard, even if you’re under 30.

I'm in the UK and at you wouldn't have any issue where I work(big AAA games publisher) - very very very few people want to be managers, so if someone expressed interest in managing they'd be given all training and support to make that happen, probably would get them promoted within a year or less. In fact I'd say that with some seniority under your belt you have to start actively avoiding management roles if you don't want them.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#182

Post by mixmastamyk » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #135

yaacov wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can’t get promoted internally, try getting promoted externally :)

This is very very hard to do if you want to go from software engineer to manager. Almost impossible - I have tried sending out hundreds of resumes over periods of years. You need to be promoted internally - but that is impossible unless you know someone. The internal job postings are a sham. I absolutely HATE software development but have been stuck in this role for 15 years and 5 years since I genuinely started loat…

Yeah, you don't go straight to director. Absolutely not externally for that matter.

First, you start out with "team lead" then work your way up after showing enthusiasm and reliability. Get the Fournier book, The Manager's Path.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#183

Post by couchridr » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:00 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #26

etempleton wrote: post #24

I think hiring externally is often over valued in many organizations today. There is a number of reasons for this, but one is that if you hire someone external they are more under your control than an internal hire who already has ideas of how things should work and relationships and therefore has their own amount of political clout. A new hire has no reputation to lean on so must be a bit more cautious at first. Ano…

I'd argue the biggest hurdle isn't even what you like or dislike, it's that when someone gets used to you being in a given position, that's all they see in you. I actually had that happen at one point in my career, kept getting an "I don't think you're ready". When I finally told them I'm leaving if it doesn't happen, they did the right thing. Afterwards I got a lot of "I'm sorry I pushed back, I couldn't see you in…

That’s a great point. I have seen secretaries take training after hours to get certificates and degrees. When finished they apply locally and perform well, since they already had an idea what the job is. Some employees who have known the person in the old role find it hard to treat the colleague equitably. In that situation sometimes the best way forward is to take the new credential to a place where no one knew you before you got it.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#184

Post by jq-r » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

ourguile wrote: post #10

This just happened with me, applied for a few internal positions I was told I was qualified for, then later found out they had changed their minds. No other opportunity for growth internally otherwise, so my only option is to look outside of the company.

Have a similar story: was working in a very toxic team and wanted to get out of it. They had openings in other teams but for new hires. I've applied anyway on one of those to either get in one or at least talk to somebody (my supervisor and his supervisors didn't want to talk to me at all). We'll I almost got fired. Jumped ship on first opportunity after that and never looked back.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#185

Post by anothernewdude » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

lvspiff wrote: post #76

After reading the article one thing that struck me was the " internal candidates who were rejected after interviewing with the hiring manager were half as likely to exit as those rejected earlier in the process." Working at a fortune 100 top 10 company I've applied for multiple higher level positions after 5 years and multiple high marks on my reviews and not gotten 1 recruiter call. I did get with one recruiter and…

Look for other positions early, not later. Interviewing is a skill that is learned through practice, things like resumes benefit from continuous improvement and refinement.

No just that but the interviews are a good chance to learn what skills and attitudes are valued by the places that are hiring the positions that you are interested in.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#186

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

nekoashide wrote: post #44

I have always given the advice to everyone I meet "Move up or move on". You should not work at a company more than a few years before you are either promoted or become highly compensated for your position. Far too many of my peers have become stagnant working at a company for 6+ years without moving up. They make less and miss out on the opportunity to make more money and expand their skills elsewhere. If you apply f…

[deleted]

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#187

Post by bane » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 12:04 AM UTC

Early in my career I worked for a small company that was acquired by an obnoxiously large megacorp (about 40k employees). The business unit we were merged into was run by a retired Army general. His divisions beneath him were run by retired Colonels and so on down the line until they got to former Captains, Lieutenants, and if no other choice former enlisted.

Over a year or two what started to happen was when former small-corp people came up for promotion, they were evaluated for former military service, and then if they didn't have any (the majority of the company) they were silently rejected for promotion and another person from either big-corp or outside were brought in who just happened to fit precisely into this giant chain of command under "the general".

To get even more ridiculous, in some cases extremely experienced and capable former small-corp managers were replaced by "a guy I knew from officer's school" who turned out to be a failed JAG officer (military lawyer) -- as one of many examples. In another case a technical software manager was replaced with a former helicopter pilot with a (previously known) very bad drinking problem and never showed up to work but who "had served together in Bosnia".

Still I worked hard there and sort of didn't believe the situation and there were other working benefits I enjoyed (lots of travel). When it came time for my own promotion my boss (former Senior enlisted) set me up to replace him with no other candidates. I was turned down and for lack of another candidate they selected a former Jr. enlisted who had been dishonorably discharged, had active ethics investigations against him in the company, and spent most of his work days surfing Facebook. Oh, when he got the position they also gave him a corporate award for work that I and my team had done.

Lesson learned, I resigned the next day. Now I look for these kind of mindless institutional hierarchies as red flags to either not take a job or to move on quickly once I discover it.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#188

Post by spfzero » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 12:29 AM UTC

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #155

yobbo wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why wouldn't you hire and promote your friends? Furthermore, do you want your colleagues to be motivated by loyalty or by competition?

Loyalty, obviously. Competition means focusing on competing with other employees and not focusing on the company's goals.

Loyalty means hiding miss-steps, cronyism, and incentive to make your boss look good no matter what. That is orthogonal to the company's goals.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#189

Post by spfzero » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 12:33 AM UTC

tomtheelder wrote: post #146

plutonorm wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very very hard to do if you want to go from software engineer to manager. Almost impossible - I have tried sending out hundreds of resumes over periods of years. You need to be promoted internally - but that is impossible unless you know someone. The internal job postings are a sham. I absolutely HATE software development but have been stuck in this role for 15 years and 5 years since I genuinely started loat…

Are you working at a large org? If you want internal mobility, particularly for IC -> manager in software eng, I would highly recommend moving to a startup. My experience at startups has generally been that the company can't convince enough of the engineers to move into management so the transition is extremely easy for those who are willing.

Or even just a smaller company that is not a start-up. In my experience, smaller companies are always looking for a way to become larger companies, and at their size, a single hire can make a significant difference. In fact I'd say the odds are better than in a start-up, because a start-up often has tons of cash to burn up along the way of learning which people could be additive.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#190

Post by AmericanChopper » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 12:44 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #144

vkou wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the natural consequence of a world where performance is difficult to measure, people are largely fungible, and next to nothing that you personally do will move the needle in whether your employer will be successful. In that situation, why wouldn't you hire and promote your friends? All of the incentives are aligned for doing just that.

I think this is an overly cynical take. Reputation and VERIFIABLE track record are what is being selected for here. If a hiring manager views this as known for a candidate, there is basically nothing someone else can do to complete. The hiring process simply isn't sufficient to do this fact finding. In my org, managers aren't really friends, but they do have trust. A strong recommendation is impossible to overturn.

Trust is really the main motivation in a lot of these situations. Imo, the value of “networking” in business is building trusting relationships with other people. I’ve gotten jobs by referrals from others, and helped other people get jobs via referrals. In those situations the referred candidate had an enormous advantage over the candidate off the street, but it’s not a system of buddies looking out for each other. It’s a system of people who’ve spent time establishing trust with each other.